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 Wrong lifters? I'm going to lose it!
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Navy_mike
Tribal Scout

12 Posts

Posted - 26 Dec 2014 :  03:19:25 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So after a head and can swap I seem to have lost oil to the rockers. I've checked the gallery for blocks and the pushrods or not blocked either.



The lifters are comp 852 which I read a lot of guys where having issues so I swapped for a set of jegs lifters. Which are made by hylift johnson. Well still nothing... What the hell is going on? Did I get 2 bad sets up lifters the jegs lifters oil band is really low compared to the comp ones

Navy_mike
Tribal Scout

12 Posts

Posted - 26 Dec 2014 :  03:22:31 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
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Merrik66
Cochise

USA
372 Posts

Posted - 26 Dec 2014 :  12:27:24 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I recall reading somewhere that Chevy lifters are Identical in basic dimensions and can be confused with pontiac type. furthermore, the problem was in relation to the oil groove location being too low. Double check though, I could be wrong...been a long time. Maybe cross check for a Chevy lifter and see if the same part number shows up. If it does, that could be the problem. If it doesn't, it still could be that someone boxed a Chevy set in the pontiac box. How long did the engine run with no oil to top end?
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Navy_mike
Tribal Scout

12 Posts

Posted - 26 Dec 2014 :  6:15:24 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Merrik66

I recall reading somewhere that Chevy lifters are Identical in basic dimensions and can be confused with pontiac type. furthermore, the problem was in relation to the oil groove location being too low. Double check though, I could be wrong...been a long time. Maybe cross check for a Chevy lifter and see if the same part number shows up. If it does, that could be the problem. If it doesn't, it still could be that someone boxed a Chevy set in the pontiac box. How long did the engine run with no oil to top end?



Not long just 20 mins to break in the cam and literally around the block everthing still looks good up top. I'm glad I caught it before to started driving it around. The xe284 cam is pretty loud so it can be hard to make out of it's the cam ticking or of it was the rockers
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5338 Posts

Posted - 26 Dec 2014 :  11:47:25 PM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
You're not by chance running 1.65 rockers on heads not clearanced for them are you?
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Merrik66
Cochise

USA
372 Posts

Posted - 27 Dec 2014 :  01:45:29 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What's your oil pressure?
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Navy_mike
Tribal Scout

12 Posts

Posted - 27 Dec 2014 :  8:16:08 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cortcomp

You're not by chance running 1.65 rockers on heads not clearanced for them are you?



I am running 1.65 but i was told they where clearenced why would that cause my no oiling problem?
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5338 Posts

Posted - 27 Dec 2014 :  10:28:06 PM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I had some 1.65s on some heads that weren't clearanced when i didn't know any better and the pushrods rubbed the sides of the holes. I don't know why, but everything was clacky. I had tons of break in lube. Well, i kept trying to adjust them and there wasn't a lot of oil up top. I noticed the number one rocker ball was mostly eaten away to metal dust! Thankfully, since it wasn't oiling up top and there was assembly lube there, all the dust (99%) was sticking to that! (and this was break in for 30 min PLUS a week or more of driving around). I cleaned it up, swapped rockers only, no clacking and great oiling! I feel like rubbing the sides was hanging something up? I don't know how or what though, because that motor ran great so i have to assume valves were opening and closing enough to run well. Had a head gasket leak later, turned out that the block was 9 thousands low on the front and rear of both decks. Tore it down, no metal dust anywhere. I mean, the rocker ball was HALF it's sized and there was fine dust all in a ball sticking to the grease around it.

Anyways, that motor had issues: i have a video here of me turning the distributor 45 degrees while it was running and it NOT MISSING A BEAT. I have that same distributor in the car now (or did, just sold it) and other than advancing to far, which bill boyle fixed, it was normal. I cannot explain that at all, i have no idea how it's possible, but i saw it and video'd it. Also, cam timing set i got from comp was like 6-12 degrees advanced as i recall, checked it 800 times before swapping, sealed power one was right on. Crazy things happen, i understand what happens in the motor pretty well, but couldn't tell you why that motor ran fine but wouldn't oil with the 1.65s and the pushrods rubbing, or why that motor didn't have any issues when i advanced the hell out of it.
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Blued and Painted
Chief PONTIAC

USA
3409 Posts

Posted - 28 Dec 2014 :  10:55:07 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The oil band/channel location is different on the chevy and pontiac lifters.
If the cam has a small base circle, the oil groove could be exposed beyond the bottom of the lifter bore at max lift plus the internal hydraulic piston travel of the lifter.


Bull Nose Formula/ 461/ Q-Jet/
TH400/ 3.08 8.5 / R44TS.

Edited by - Blued and Painted on 28 Dec 2014 10:55:24 AM
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Navy_mike
Tribal Scout

12 Posts

Posted - 28 Dec 2014 :  10:51:12 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cortcomp

I had some 1.65s on some heads that weren't clearanced when i didn't know any better and the pushrods rubbed the sides of the holes. I don't know why, but everything was clacky. I had tons of break in lube. Well, i kept trying to adjust them and there wasn't a lot of oil up top. I noticed the number one rocker ball was mostly eaten away to metal dust! Thankfully, since it wasn't oiling up top and there was assembly lube there, all the dust (99%) was sticking to that! (and this was break in for 30 min PLUS a week or more of driving around). I cleaned it up, swapped rockers only, no clacking and great oiling! I feel like rubbing the sides was hanging something up? I don't know how or what though, because that motor ran great so i have to assume valves were opening and closing enough to run well. Had a head gasket leak later, turned out that the block was 9 thousands low on the front and rear of both decks. Tore it down, no metal dust anywhere. I mean, the rocker ball was HALF it's sized and there was fine dust all in a ball sticking to the grease around it.

Anyways, that motor had issues: i have a video here of me turning the distributor 45 degrees while it was running and it NOT MISSING A BEAT. I have that same distributor in the car now (or did, just sold it) and other than advancing to far, which bill boyle fixed, it was normal. I cannot explain that at all, i have no idea how it's possible, but i saw it and video'd it. Also, cam timing set i got from comp was like 6-12 degrees advanced as i recall, checked it 800 times before swapping, sealed power one was right on. Crazy things happen, i understand what happens in the motor pretty well, but couldn't tell you why that motor ran fine but wouldn't oil with the 1.65s and the pushrods rubbing, or why that motor didn't have any issues when i advanced the hell out of it.



Well that's strange! I went and check and sure engough they where not opened up.. So I fixed that problem and moved to the cam and guess what's a couple lobes where starting to get whiped. I pulled the cam out and miced it and there is may .005 difference from a good lobe to bad one but you can clearly see the lobe is messed up. So was it the wrong lifters? Push rod binding or the facted I set the lash to tight. I'm guessing it's all three. But I go new Rhodes lifter. New comp cam. And comp cam break in oil on it's way. So I hope this time things will go much smoother.

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RayK
Cochise

USA
925 Posts

Posted - 04 Jan 2015 :  7:42:47 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Not sure which lube you are going to use for break in, but I used Comp's red lube, liquid in a bottle and it was total crap! Wiped out three lifters within 10 minutes. I used Crower's break in paste they provide with their new cams and never skipped a beat with the new cam. I won't ever use Comp lube again.

1969 Firebird 461, #62 iron heads, Comp roller, Performer RPM, Q-Jet Turbo 400 w/ Continental converter. GM 8.5" 10 bolt with 3:73 gears.11.50's@ 119+ MPH
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Phil
The Great White Buffalo

USA
7222 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2015 :  08:53:54 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I've only ever used the paste and never had an issue. I hadn't even noticed there was a liquid but if I had, I wouldn't have felt comfortable using it.

Bowties are for Pee-wee Herman. "Chevy": even the name sounds cheap, but not as cheap as your Pontiac will be with an LS transplant.
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5338 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2015 :  10:07:55 AM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The melling liquid is super sticky, i've used that especially on top of the lifters and rockers when assembly is done, but the isky rev lube or similar seems like it'd hold on better if the motor wasn't started asap after assembly.
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Phil
The Great White Buffalo

USA
7222 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2015 :  7:30:17 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yeah I always lube the crap out of the cams (cam paste) and even put more on after its in place. Never had an issue with a cam during break in or afterward.

Bowties are for Pee-wee Herman. "Chevy": even the name sounds cheap, but not as cheap as your Pontiac will be with an LS transplant.
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Blued and Painted
Chief PONTIAC

USA
3409 Posts

Posted - 06 Jan 2015 :  8:42:53 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think im losing it.


Bull Nose Formula/ 461/ Q-Jet/
TH400/ 3.08 8.5 / R44TS.
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bluebird
Cochise

USA
292 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2015 :  5:58:53 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Anytime I've stuck a new cam in, I always pre-lube by running a drill with a home made fixture on the oil pump shaft till oil comes out of all the lifters. I think they sell a bit somewhere that does the same thing. I couldn't believe how many minutes at full speed it takes for oil to get up to the lifters!

"Experience is the best teacher, unfortunately, it's the costliest!"
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Mr. P-Body
Running Bear

USA
2258 Posts

Posted - 30 Sep 2015 :  4:28:27 PM  Show Profile  Visit Mr. P-Body's Homepage  Reply with Quote


The lifters pictured are a Chevy and a Pontiac. Summit is the WRONG place to buy Pontiac parts. They think everything
GM is a Chevy. They also sell obsolete parts with current part numbers WITHOUT informing you. Did the part number include "817" (Chevy) or "951" (Pontiac)? Sealed Power HT-951 is the lifter of choice for a flat-tappet hydraulic. A good moly-graphite lube (the paste being spoken of here) is what we use. Remove inner springs, run, install inners, run again. yes, it sounds like added work. Don't wanna? Fine. Get a roller....

Merrick's correct, the oil band is the issue.

XE284H is quite "rowdy". Also, QUITE capable when used with good heads, induction and exhaust. Too "big" for stock manifolds, IMO. Best in 455 and 461s making power to about 6,200.

Jim
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tjs44
Cochise

USA
413 Posts

Posted - 30 Sep 2015 :  5:02:48 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If you ever use Summit,ask for Scott Esterly.He is a pontiac racer and knows his crap.Tom
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