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 73 ponitac 455 with 4x heads
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rustytinman1955
Tribal Scout

USA
24 Posts

Posted - 21 Jun 2012 :  4:05:16 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
what is the best options to increase the performance from this motor which i am planning on installing in my 68 bird . this car will be used mostly on street ,shows and occassional strip . would prefer to keep as much of this motor stock as possible can i work theese heads and perhaps replace the pistons for increased power .open to all sugestions here , the 455 is connected to a turbo 400 thanks

dave phelps

rskram
Cochise

265 Posts

Posted - 21 Jun 2012 :  6:45:45 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You might wanna copy/paste this into the Restoration-Performance forum. People are gonna need a lot more info from you to be able to help you out. E.G. budget, performance desired, casting numbers, etc.
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rustytinman1955
Tribal Scout

USA
24 Posts

Posted - 21 Jun 2012 :  7:55:25 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
k thanks will do when i get back to the house

dave phelps
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GtoGuy32
Cochise

USA
842 Posts

Posted - 21 Jun 2012 :  9:48:47 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have this same setup in my 68 Firebird as well. It is bone stock. I have a 4 speed behind it as well.

It really runs out of breath around 4500 RPM. It really is a dog if you want to compare it to most high performance engines.

Definitely want a cam and try to bump the compression up on it. I think these engines are right around 8:1, which is great for the gas we have, but not so great for power.

If you plan to run it at the strip, you may want to consider a new set of rods at least.

What kind of performance are you after? I think my Bird (on a good day) may run a mid to high 15 in the quarter mile just as a baseline comparison.
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rustytinman1955
Tribal Scout

USA
24 Posts

Posted - 30 Jun 2012 :  3:09:45 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
i plan on mainly cruises and shows , but also when in need enough performance to make heads turn just a little mainly want it for the street . am definitley going to invest in a cam and cylinders out about .030 prefer to keeep the 4x heads just hoping to re work them a bit instead of new alluminum . the car is geared for the 400 someone put a threes speed with 6 banger in it not sure why . i do have a turbo 400 to in stall if i choose not sure at this point . one step at a time . thanks for your reply

dave phelps
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rustytinman1955
Tribal Scout

USA
24 Posts

Posted - 30 Jun 2012 :  3:10:56 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
the 455 is a 73 with 4x heads

dave phelps
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Blued and Painted
Chief PONTIAC

USA
3404 Posts

Posted - 30 Jun 2012 :  3:21:35 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Looks like a little over 9 to 1 . Not Bad.


Bull Nose Formula/ 461/ Q-Jet/
TH400/ 3.08 8.5 / R44TS.
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Phil
The Great White Buffalo

USA
7214 Posts

Posted - 30 Jun 2012 :  3:45:37 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Those heads are probably 114cc chambers if original to the block. Definately not high performance and I wouldn't waste time and money on them when you can put practically any other Pontiac head on and increase compression as you are probably lucky to even have 8:1 right now, more like mid 7's perhaps.

Bowties are for Pee-wee Herman. "Chevy": even the name sounds cheap, but not as cheap as your Pontiac will be with an LS transplant.

Edited by - Phil on 30 Jun 2012 3:46:39 PM
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5335 Posts

Posted - 30 Jun 2012 :  6:32:01 PM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
There were some 98cc 4x heads on my 74 455...check those secondary codes.
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rustytinman1955
Tribal Scout

USA
24 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2012 :  07:43:27 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
my heads are 114cc what is cc for a street motor i have a chance to get a set of 72cc 400 heads to put on this 455 would like recomendations before i spend my money thanks

dave phelps
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Bill Boyle
Horse Feathers (Charter Member)

USA
4793 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2012 :  08:34:54 AM  Show Profile  Visit Bill Boyle's Homepage  Reply with Quote
72 cc heads on a 455 provide high compression--perhaps too high for premium pump gas.

"Dedicated to keeping the classic Pontiac engine alive."

----
400 bored +.030, forged TRW pistons, ported 62 heads, Hedman headers, 2.5 SS dual exhaust X Pypes, Comp 276AH10 cam, Scorpion 1.65 RR, 850 Q-jet, stock intake & tuned HEI; original owner.
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rustytinman1955
Tribal Scout

USA
24 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2012 :  09:17:07 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
open to suggestions what would you recommend

dave phelps
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5335 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2012 :  09:27:53 AM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Depends on the cam you want to run and budget and power goals. All go hand in hand.
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Blued and Painted
Chief PONTIAC

USA
3404 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2012 :  09:51:36 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We need the number on the small chamber heads. Some used dished Pistons to adjust compression. Some use new aluminum heads. Expensive but not that much more than some fully re-worked and ported cast iron heads.


Bull Nose Formula/ 461/ Q-Jet/
TH400/ 3.08 8.5 / R44TS.

Edited by - Blued and Painted on 02 Jul 2012 09:52:27 AM
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torqueymonster
Cochise

USA
524 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2012 :  11:13:56 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If you want bang for not a lot of buck, go find some 6x4s off a 400. fairly common and inexpensive, will put you right where you want to be, compression-wise. That's what I have, and am very happy with my setup. 455 .030 over, comp extreme energy xe 284 cam. th350 for now. Bill's right- stay away from those 72s.
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5335 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2012 :  11:15:18 AM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Torquey is right about that setup. I was accidently laying rubber with it in the garage moving it around for the first time last night (6x-8 milled, XE284, 455 .030 over, pretty stickers all over it to add HP)
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torqueymonster
Cochise

USA
524 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2012 :  1:22:15 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This should be in your neighborhood-- yank the heads and sell the shortblock.

http://pittsburgh.craigslist.org/pts/3045022015.html

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rustytinman1955
Tribal Scout

USA
24 Posts

Posted - 08 Jul 2012 :  06:12:18 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
i have gotten my hands on 142 heads reconditioned with 3 angle valves is set up to take up to 550 lift cam am sending my block out to be reconditioned and opened .030 . am using the 73 block . I believe i got a real deal 675.00 for the heads . Another question here the bird is set up for a 3 speed am trying to decide if i should rebuild the turbo 400 auto and install and or go out and get me muncie 4 speed looking for oppinions here. i have hooked up with dennys auto out of hagerstown md anyone familiar with this operation

dave phelps
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Phil
The Great White Buffalo

USA
7214 Posts

Posted - 08 Jul 2012 :  11:39:39 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't recognize that number. Probably pre-67 small valve heads. Did you buy from a shop (can you return them?) or private seller.?

You should have posted this info before making the purchase so we could have steered you away.

What EXACTLY has been done to the heads?

Bowties are for Pee-wee Herman. "Chevy": even the name sounds cheap, but not as cheap as your Pontiac will be with an LS transplant.

Edited by - Phil on 08 Jul 2012 11:41:26 AM
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5335 Posts

Posted - 08 Jul 2012 :  12:22:43 PM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Wallace shows 67 small valve 8.6compreasion on a 400.
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Phil
The Great White Buffalo

USA
7214 Posts

Posted - 08 Jul 2012 :  12:35:51 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ok, I just had a look.. Better check again Cort.

http://www.wallaceracing.com/head1.htm

Bowties are for Pee-wee Herman. "Chevy": even the name sounds cheap, but not as cheap as your Pontiac will be with an LS transplant.
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5335 Posts

Posted - 08 Jul 2012 :  2:31:12 PM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I used the head code search and checked that link, both say 1967 small valve 8.6 compression on a 400 for head code 142. What'd i miss?
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Phil
The Great White Buffalo

USA
7214 Posts

Posted - 08 Jul 2012 :  4:33:16 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I posted the link and it shows them to be 1966 vintage. Assuming of course that the Wallace site is correct.

Bowties are for Pee-wee Herman. "Chevy": even the name sounds cheap, but not as cheap as your Pontiac will be with an LS transplant.
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rustytinman1955
Tribal Scout

USA
24 Posts

Posted - 08 Jul 2012 :  8:45:26 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
the heads i aquired are 142s date code is e-23-7
reconditioned by denny out of williamsport md
72ccs
exhaust 1.640
intake 1.888
hardened exhaust seats new guides high performance springs retainers and locks will take upto a 55o lift

dave phelps
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5335 Posts

Posted - 08 Jul 2012 :  9:00:05 PM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
don't know how good a big lift cam would do with the smaller valves, those who know more will chime in.
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Phil
The Great White Buffalo

USA
7214 Posts

Posted - 08 Jul 2012 :  10:10:19 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dave, I'd run them in a 5000# Grand Safari wagon with a 455 that doesn't see the high side of 4500 perhaps. But that's even stretching it a bit. Any way you can return them and look for something better? You would be much better off with a set of $100-$150 6X-4's ( or 8's) for example that needed to be redone.

Bowties are for Pee-wee Herman. "Chevy": even the name sounds cheap, but not as cheap as your Pontiac will be with an LS transplant.
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rustytinman1955
Tribal Scout

USA
24 Posts

Posted - 09 Jul 2012 :  07:14:53 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
i have looked high and low for the 6x and summit which do suck are looking for about a grand a piece for heads think for the money i am still better off then with my 4x 1h

dave phelps
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Phil
The Great White Buffalo

USA
7214 Posts

Posted - 09 Jul 2012 :  08:44:40 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Have you checked Craigslist? I see them often in my area. Some dim bulbs try to charge RA-4 head prices but others are anxious to get them out of their garage for a hundred or two.

Where are you located?

Bowties are for Pee-wee Herman. "Chevy": even the name sounds cheap, but not as cheap as your Pontiac will be with an LS transplant.
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5335 Posts

Posted - 09 Jul 2012 :  09:33:55 AM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
http://pittsburgh.craigslist.org/pts/3045022015.html
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5335 Posts

Posted - 09 Jul 2012 :  09:38:19 AM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Cheap block city (400,428,455)

http://harrisburg.craigslist.org/pts/3009039377.html

Some big valve heads you can massage out towards 75ish ccs:

http://harrisburg.craigslist.org/pts/3124830217.html

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torqueymonster
Cochise

USA
524 Posts

Posted - 09 Jul 2012 :  2:30:35 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Jesus, Rusty-- Cort and I both posted the same link for you with a complete engine (you could sell the shortblock and make more than your money back), and perfect heads for your application, and you run right out and buy heads that Bill just straight up told you would not run right on your engine. You make my head hurt. Can I get an amen? We've all been doing this a while, guy...
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rustytinman1955
Tribal Scout

USA
24 Posts

Posted - 10 Jul 2012 :  2:18:11 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
understand i purchased the heads before i got this info too late to get money back. i appreciate the info am going to check out theese sites thanks guys . I drive a rig for a living peddling groceries not whole lot of time but am going to see what i can do with this info you gave me . the heads i did purchase though was told i would get 72ccs . anyways thanks again.

dave phelps
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rustytinman1955
Tribal Scout

USA
24 Posts

Posted - 10 Jul 2012 :  2:25:04 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Phil

Have you checked Craigslist? I see them often in my area. Some dim bulbs try to charge RA-4 head prices but others are anxious to get them out of their garage for a hundred or two.

Where are you located?

du bois pa area

dave phelps
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Blued and Painted
Chief PONTIAC

USA
3404 Posts

Posted - 10 Jul 2012 :  2:35:25 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Got to double check the cc's on all pontiac heads.


Bull Nose Formula/ 461/ Q-Jet/
TH400/ 3.08 8.5 / R44TS.
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rustytinman1955
Tribal Scout

USA
24 Posts

Posted - 10 Jul 2012 :  7:04:29 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
ok guys you sold me i am going after the 400 with 6x heads come friday thanks now hope eventualy i can recoupe some of my money back on the 455 eventually

dave phelps
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5335 Posts

Posted - 10 Jul 2012 :  7:45:28 PM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
you can run those 6xs with the 455 and sell the 400 block/assembly to someone building a stroker
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BearGFR
Bear

USA
580 Posts

Posted - 10 Jul 2012 :  9:30:02 PM  Show Profile  Visit BearGFR's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Slow down and take a deep breath, rusty :) There's more than one way to build a hot Pontiac. If you've already got the 455 there's no reason to dump it and start looking for a 400. If you have the -choice- between a 400 and a 455, building a 400 stroker will result in a stronger motor because the smaller mains means more meat in the webs. But that doesn't mean you can't also start with a 455 and build a plenty strong street motor. The strength deal isn't likely to become a problem unless you're making upwards of 600 HP or more and spinning it to high rpm.

How strong are you looking to make it?

Bear
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Blued and Painted
Chief PONTIAC

USA
3404 Posts

Posted - 10 Jul 2012 :  9:36:17 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Great, now study Jim Hands book and do some light porting behind the valves. Taking out the obvious irregularities will make a differance. Then a good valve job and you will be set. Full out porting is good but not absolutely necessary. Depends on your horse power goals.


Bull Nose Formula/ 461/ Q-Jet/
TH400/ 3.08 8.5 / R44TS.

Edited by - Blued and Painted on 10 Jul 2012 9:42:09 PM
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Phil
The Great White Buffalo

USA
7214 Posts

Posted - 10 Jul 2012 :  9:39:10 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What 400? Did I miss something posted? Or are you going to search for one? I agree with Bear, stay with the 455 in this case as there is just so much more power right there already that you'd have to chase with the 400. If you already had the 400 it'd be a different story.

Just be patient and you will soon find some heads. They only made millions of them so it's not like you're looking for a Buick Y-Job.

If you can run your 114cc 4x's in the meantime they will be fine to get things going, then change heads later if need be. That is, as long as you don't have to sink any money into the 114cc heads. (?)

What condition is the 455 in currently? Is it a running engine? Box of parts?

Bowties are for Pee-wee Herman. "Chevy": even the name sounds cheap, but not as cheap as your Pontiac will be with an LS transplant.

Edited by - Phil on 10 Jul 2012 9:41:50 PM
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Blued and Painted
Chief PONTIAC

USA
3404 Posts

Posted - 10 Jul 2012 :  10:25:01 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You must have been napping. We now have 6X8 milled to 95 cc's, ported to 230/180 @ .5


Bull Nose Formula/ 461/ Q-Jet/
TH400/ 3.08 8.5 / R44TS.

Edited by - Blued and Painted on 11 Jul 2012 12:55:44 AM
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rustytinman1955
Tribal Scout

USA
24 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2012 :  07:40:02 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
i located 6x heads and motor for 300.00 think i better grab it while i can . i can always find another project pontiac .Phil i plan on using 142s that i already purchased either with the 455 or the 400 for 300 i get block and 6x heads unless i get luck and am able to sell the 142s and recoup some of the money. not sure but if nothing else ill have spares on the shelf

dave phelps
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5335 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2012 :  09:49:01 AM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Unless you really tune the timing/carb and select the exact correct cam, 72cc heads on a 455 will be a disaster. The 6x heads on the 400 will likely be slightly too big, but if you pick the right cam and run it in the right RPM range it will still be a street car to be reckoned with. you're talking like 12.4 compression on iron heads if that 455 is 30 over. I can't see that working no matter what you try.

Match the 142s with the 400 if you must use them (10.87 still seems too high compression. Maybe they're really 75cc instead of 72?), and the 6X's with the 455 (best option with the parts you're talking about)
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5335 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2012 :  09:58:11 AM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I just realized that the 142s AREN'T 72cc heads, regard the compression numbers. I know i'd still go the 455 w/6x...because i did...twice.
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5335 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2012 :  10:46:51 AM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I see from your email that the machine shop says they're 72ccs, if so that'll be pretty high compression even on the 400. I'm betting he measured them and wallace's head code site is off, and the machinist is correct. Clean looking heads though.
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torqueymonster
Cochise

USA
524 Posts

Posted - 17 Jul 2012 :  3:30:53 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I Think he's taking our advice, Bear, et.al... picked up the 400 with 6x heads attached-- he'll sell the shortblock 400 to make back the money he spent to acquire the heads, if I'm following correctly, like we recommended...
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rustytinman1955
Tribal Scout

USA
24 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2012 :  4:55:25 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
ok guys i was able to pick up them 6x 8 heads today for 100 dollars they appear to have been redone have dual springs and such goint to build the 455 and get on with my project however i have theese 142s trying to decide if i want to keep them or post them on ebay and or craigs list

dave phelps
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Phil
The Great White Buffalo

USA
7214 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2012 :  10:34:33 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I assume you will check or have those heads checked out thoroughly if your planning to just bolt them on and go? Right now they have unknown work, springs etc. Unless they came with detailed paperwork from a reputable machine shop.

Bowties are for Pee-wee Herman. "Chevy": even the name sounds cheap, but not as cheap as your Pontiac will be with an LS transplant.
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sixt8bird
Chief Many Horses

USA
1114 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2012 :  01:58:48 AM  Show Profile  Visit sixt8bird's Homepage  Reply with Quote
While the heads are off, put on some new springs!!! They will be your RPM killer and for $100 you can get good springs. Buy a Summit 2802 cam, install the 6X heads and you will have a fire breather.......Cheap!!That 2802 in a 455 with about 9-1 is the cats ass!!!! Great low end and a good rev'er also.It has a great torque band. Too bad about those other heads. You will have a hard time flogging them off for even close to your initial price.
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rustytinman1955
Tribal Scout

USA
24 Posts

Posted - 25 Jul 2012 :  07:16:11 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
guys i am taking my 455 to the machine shop today for cooking and etc am i too assume i should have it bored out to .30 or what do you think here

dave phelps
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Bill Boyle
Horse Feathers (Charter Member)

USA
4793 Posts

Posted - 25 Jul 2012 :  10:02:25 AM  Show Profile  Visit Bill Boyle's Homepage  Reply with Quote
If you're boring the block, that means new pistons. Forged pistons are preferred. That also means work must be done on the crank and rods in terms of balancing. Using old rods is okay for mild build ups, but the availability of Eagle Rods is something to consider as a great alternative.

You need to get all your ducks in a row, so to speak. The machine shop can either order the pistons for your or you must provide them to them prior to machine work. The machine work must be precise and the measurements from these new parts are very important.

"Dedicated to keeping the classic Pontiac engine alive."

----
400 bored +.030, forged TRW pistons, ported 62 heads, Hedman headers, 2.5 SS dual exhaust X Pypes, Comp 276AH10 cam, Scorpion 1.65 RR, 850 Q-jet, stock intake & tuned HEI; original owner.
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Blued and Painted
Chief PONTIAC

USA
3404 Posts

Posted - 25 Jul 2012 :  10:08:04 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Contact Mr. P-Body http://centralvirginiamachine.com/
Or Jim Buttler http://butlerperformance.com/


Bull Nose Formula/ 461/ Q-Jet/
TH400/ 3.08 8.5 / R44TS.

Edited by - Blued and Painted on 25 Jul 2012 10:15:55 AM
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