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 temp. 210 to hot?
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miller
Buffalo

USA
83 Posts

Posted - 11 Aug 2011 :  4:16:24 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi I have a 455 Pontiac with a 400 trans and the trans is cooled by the raditor... the temp gauge sensor is in the passenger side head....My question is this..at 85 degrees outside temp.... and driving 65 mph down the road the temp.gauge reads 210 and it stays steady at 210...is this 210 running hot?,..or is it already to hot at 210?...or is it an ok temp and nothing to worry about?...is the 210 a low/med/or a high temp.?...I guess I am asking what is a good running temp?...Thanks in advance for any info Miller

cortcomp
Coyote

USA
4232 Posts

Posted - 11 Aug 2011 :  4:44:52 PM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
If it's always at that temp and never waivers, going up or down i'd assume that it's ok and that someone probably has a high thermostat like 205 or something in it. Some here run no problem all day at 160 and some are always running on the hot side...the question is, is your car running warmer than normal? If not, i wouldn't say 210 is too hot without knowing more about the thermostat, usage, fuel mixture, etc.

Also, factory gauges are not that reliable after so many years, always double check with new or trusted equipment when investigating a gauge reading that's not where you want it.
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spiders1010
Buffalo

89 Posts

Posted - 11 Aug 2011 :  10:22:06 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I run at 210 consistently with my 455, and I remember both my 72' camaro 396, and my 76' camaro 383 stroker both ran in the 200-210 range and I never had any trouble. My 87' GTA I ran a 170deg. thermostat, because that was what hypertech recommended with the chip I had in it.

1970 Tempest 455 4sp.

Block bored .30 over, decked 10, magnafluxed and honed. #15 heads ported and polished. Summit 2802 cam. Hooker Hedders, Chambered exhaust. Auburn posi, 3:73 gears. M21-4sp. 1.65 roller rockers. Quadrajet.


NEEDS MORE POWER
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Christ
Howling Wind

USA
1804 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2011 :  10:29:17 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christ's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by spiders1010

I run at 210 consistently with my 455, and I remember both my 72' camaro 396, and my 76' camaro 383 stroker both ran in the 200-210 range and I never had any trouble. My 87' GTA I ran a 170deg. thermostat, because that was what hypertech recommended with the chip I had in it.





Head temp is going to be the hottest spot. Best place to get the temp is in the heat cross over of the manifold! Also check to see if your running a 195 degree thermostat.
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miller
Buffalo

USA
83 Posts

Posted - 15 Aug 2011 :  9:38:08 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the replies and info...it has a 160 degree stat. in it now,...I will check the timing and may remove the sensor from the head and put it in the cross over...Thank Miller
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miller
Buffalo

USA
83 Posts

Posted - 18 Aug 2011 :  5:45:01 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi again...I moved the sensor from the head to the cross over,..checked timing it is at 12 degrees no pinging,...made sure carb was not running lean,...the temp went to 210 at idle and stayed there no up or down with the electric fan running ( puller type ),...at this time it appears that the 210 is where it is going to run/stay at,...I will take it on the highway and see what happens/changes...I read somewhere that 210 is not running hot or over heating,...over heating is when it is pukeing out..Miller
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rad400
War Paint

USA
1242 Posts

Posted - 18 Aug 2011 :  7:41:11 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Miller are you running vacuume advance if so it may need to be replaced. A friend had to replace his and temps went down get an adjustable one. Also how many cfm does you fan flow? You need a minumim of 3000 cfm. Also is there tight clearance between the water pump pully and divider plate? check for cerculation in the radiator hopefully no clogs.

Conrad
79 Trans Am 400 auto Crower 60210 Torker II Holley 750 vac sec. #12 heads,3500 stall.
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
4232 Posts

Posted - 18 Aug 2011 :  10:00:23 PM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The elec fan can honestly cool less than a nice 19" 7 blade clutch fan with a nice fitting shroud, and be less noisy too. Having the fan right on the radiator makes it hard for the fan to pull air through the parts of the radiator where the fan isn't directly touching. One of those arguments that goes on forever, which is better, etc, etc.
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rad400
War Paint

USA
1242 Posts

Posted - 19 Aug 2011 :  07:19:14 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Cort I have a dual 4th gen fans and cools my 79 T/A to 180.

Conrad
79 Trans Am 400 auto Crower 60210 Torker II Holley 750 vac sec. #12 heads,3500 stall.
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
4232 Posts

Posted - 19 Aug 2011 :  08:36:19 AM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I didn't see which body car this is in...did the later F-bodies move to electric fans? I would assume the oem setup would be more efficient and have a better shroud setup than what some of the hot rod shops are selling.
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miller
Buffalo

USA
83 Posts

Posted - 19 Aug 2011 :  2:43:29 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
..I should have posted more info at the start,..the 455 is in a 31 ford p/u,..all the coolant passeges hoses etc are clear and ok,...the pump was checked to make sure it was correct before putting it on,..as far as the electric fan I had to use it do to lack of space for the oem fan,...I am not sure of how much cfm's the fan pulls,..the vacume adavance is correct,...I did the following today I made sure there was about 1 inch of air space at the top of the raditor,I let the motor and fan run, it went to 185 degrees at idle,..I turned the fan off, the temp. went to 200 degrees at idle,..I turned the fan on and the temp went back to 185 after about 5 mins,...I would think that the fan does not pull enough air,..I will be looking at fans with large cfm's soon..Thanks for the help and info
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455 Formula
Sitting Bull

USA
244 Posts

Posted - 20 Dec 2011 :  4:33:54 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Have you checked the water pump divider plate to water pump impeller clearance??? That is the most common casue of hot running Pontiacs.

My .060" over Pontiac 400, with a 4 row copper/brass radiator will not even get up to 150 degrees (without a thermostat) going down the road in 100 degree Central Califorina weather.

Currently, I am running a 4 row copper/brass radiator and a 180 degree MotoRad (Made in Israel) thermostat. The car will creep up to 180 degrees and then drop down to about 170 and continue this cycle.

At one point, I was running an AC-Delco HD Cluctch and 7 blade fan. The clutch would not apply until 210 degrees, so I swapped it out for a 7 blade flex fan from a 1968 Lincoln and the temps stay very, very low all the time, even here in the desert where it can reach 110-112 degrees in the summer.

Even though my car is a factory non A/C car, the cooling system holds 22 quarts of coolant.

I would need a 195 degree thermostat to get this car to run consistently at 180 degrees...Robert
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dgray
Cochise

845 Posts

Posted - 20 Dec 2011 :  6:54:12 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"Also how many cfm does you fan flow? You need a minumim of 3000 cfm."

Traveling down the road at 65 mph the fan is not a factor. 210 is not over heating at 65 mph. What does the temp get to on a 95 degree day at 75 mph cruising? Is your timing fixed at all-in? If your timimg advances too far you can get hot at cruising speed. Also the transmissiion and torque converter can add a lot of heat to the system. A tranny cooler helps sometimes. I run a mechanical gauge right on the engine (it was a freebe from Summit so I hooked it up) It helps me keep track of the actual temp.
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455 Formula
Sitting Bull

USA
244 Posts

Posted - 20 Dec 2011 :  9:32:10 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dgray

Traveling down the road at 65 mph the fan is not a factor. 210 is not over heating at 65 mph...


Not all cars will react the same.

My 1975 Formula will run well over 200 degrees (and keep moving higher) when the fan was removed for testing.

Certain body styles must have a fan to create negative pressure behind the radiator core or they will suffer from inadequate airflow.

My friend, Ben Arnold, was a NASCR driver in the 1960's and 1970's. Ben told me they tried all kinds of experiments to see if they could get away without running a fan.

His Torino Talledega overheated before he could get it back to the pits at over 150 mph without a fan.

You do bring up some valid points, especially related to ignition timing. I think you are correct in that 210F is not overheating at 65 mph under light load in this scenario. My concern would be, however, where his temps are under load.

The cooling system, like any other part of the car is a combination.

My .060" over 413 actually runs cooler the harder I push the car, but with the right fuel curve, correct impeller/divider clearance, a anti-collapse spring in the lower hose, 42 degrees total timing (mechanical only - 50 total with vacuum advance) 22 quarts of coolant and a 19" (7) blade fan mounted 1/2 way out of the shroud, there is a lot of air moving over that copper/brass 4 row...Robert
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Bill Boyle
Horse Feathers (Charter Member)

USA
3992 Posts

Posted - 21 Dec 2011 :  10:10:33 AM  Show Profile  Visit Bill Boyle's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Robert, you wrote:
"Have you checked the water pump divider plate to water pump impeller clearance??? "

Where can I get the factory specs on this?

Thanks,
Bill

"Dedicated to keeping the classic Pontiac engine alive."

----
400 bored +.030, forged TRW pistons, ported 62 heads, Heddman headers, 2.5 SS dual exhaust X Pypes, Comp 276AH10 cam, Scorpion 1.65 RR, 850 Q-jet, stock intake & tuned HEI; original owner.
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
4232 Posts

Posted - 21 Dec 2011 :  10:45:33 AM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Did the factory publish specs on that clearance? I was under the impression that they just expected any new plate to be ok and bolt it in and go. And maybe it was, when only gm was making them. I didn't look hard, but i've never come across that spec in my factory manual for the 66, 67, or the 71.
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Phil
The Great White Buffalo

USA
6273 Posts

Posted - 21 Dec 2011 :  7:11:43 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
And was it installed with a right or left handed socket set?

"Chevy": even the name sounds cheap.
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clintww
Cochise

USA
565 Posts

Posted - 21 Dec 2011 :  7:23:28 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bill

Your answer is in the back of Jim Hands book. You must have seen it...

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455 Formula
Sitting Bull

USA
244 Posts

Posted - 21 Dec 2011 :  8:18:42 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bill,

I don't think there is a published factory spec on the impeller to divider plate clearance. I first heard about this from a fellow in Australia named Geoff Buwalda back in 1999.

The consenus is that .060" to .100" clearance is correct. Wider clearances tend to rob the impeller of efficiency...Robert
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rad400
War Paint

USA
1242 Posts

Posted - 22 Dec 2011 :  07:29:41 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bill Jim Hand did put that in his book in the cooling section.

Conrad
79 Trans Am 400 auto Crower 60210 Torker II Holley 750 vac sec. #12 heads,3500 stall.
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smogboy
Tribal Scout

USA
5 Posts

Posted - 15 Dec 2013 :  3:32:46 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have a 66 tempest with a 3row Champion aluminum radiator dual electric fans 2100 cfm advertised flow, shroud custom fabbed for the radiator. I AM RUNNING A 455 .040 over , Eagle rods and crank, Mahle pistons, Ultradyne mechanical roller .628 lift 298 duration 108 centerline. Kauffman heads intake, and crossover , heads ported by SD Performance 320 cfm. 900 cfm doublepumper holley. I also have the CSI electric water pump from BOP engineering, compression is 11.5:1. I'm having trouble keeping temps below 220 F on warm days. timing is 16 before top dead center, total advance 36. It currently uses a 9" housing 3.90:1 ratio, and 4200 JW converter. I have tried with or without t-stat and their is no change. I'm new to your forum, and I apologize if I have done anything incorrectly. I'm also new to a heavily modified Pontiac. I sure could use some of the knowledge and experience you guys have with Pontiacs. I love the car, my dad and I have had it since I was 21, we started working on it 3yrs later. I'm 41 now, and after dad had a long battle with cancer,and eventually lost. I'm flyin' solo. This engine was a tribute to him and has taken some time to finish. I must get this right, it's our Pontiac. It's the only way. Thank you for any help or advice. It is greatly appreciated.
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Total Jackass
Tribal Scout

0 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2014 :  04:16:59 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Q. What did the painter say to the wall?
http://www.shoesfloor.net/watches-cartier.html

I'm a first class jerk and don't you forget it!
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Phil
The Great White Buffalo

USA
6273 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2014 :  6:33:20 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
TTT

"Chevy": even the name sounds cheap.
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