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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5338 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2011 :  6:13:35 PM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
As some of you know from my "Adventures" last year, there's more the Pontiac clutch parts than you would think. Many name brand aftermarket makers of 64-72 pontiac clutch parts don't know or won't admit the whole story, so i'd like to document differences and issues here for others to find, to make my setup work better, to help others avoid pitfalls, and to sh*$talk companies who offer poor customer service for our brand.

First, my other thread:
http://psp.aquacomp.net/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4094

A quick rundown:

I have a 71 T-37 that came stock 6cyl with automatic on the column. It is now a 428/4spd OD car with a tranny that is, dimensionally inside the bellhousing, a Muncie.

I have a complete PY (or Ames or whatever, parts are all the same mfgr from all the current poontiac parts sellers) 4 speed conversion kit, pedals all the way down to the fork.

I have tried 3 different GM forks including an OE pontiac one (and the oem pontiac one is not the same part number as a chevy one, whoever tells you that is wrong, they are slightly different) BUT the aftermarket one that has the slightly offset pushrod end does seem to be the best one. It's what Ames and PY, etc recommend for us now.




For basic street use, you pretty much have 2 choices in flywheels:

- Hayes steel flywheel
- OEM used pontiac flywheel'

Keep in mind that:
- A 10 1/2 pressure plate takes less bearing travel to release than an 11"
- Pontiac did have some 11" factory setups, so an 11" clutch SHOULD work.
- My last resort MAY be a 10 1/2" clutch. But i hate to let Hays and PY and the car win.



---------------------------------


The basic issues i have come across, and here to discuss, is that not all flywheel and clutch discs are compatible with this setup, and that this setup may not fully release when put together, and theories on why that is, so you may choose better when you pick out clutch parts.




Despite pedal height, free play, etc, etc. the hard main points those items in the manual point to but don't explain are the following:

- You want about 1/16 or 1/8th or so inch clearance of the throwout (release) bearing from the pressure plate "fingers" (this is where pedal free play comes from). Otherwise no pedal free play and your bearing spins all the time, which will wear it out very quickly.

- You want an air gap between the pressure plate, clutch disc, and flywheel of about .030 to .050. That could be .020 between the disc and flywheel, and other side of the disc and pressure plate, .040 total, or what have you.

- You want a pivot ball, fork and throwout bearing combination that makes your clutch geometry so that the arm is coming out of the bellhousing and leaning forward on the car. So when you push the clutch pedal, you're moving the throwout bearing in like a see-saw and getting the most travel possible for a pedal push. (Or adequate to get the right throwout bearing gap and clutch air gap.) If you have a shorter bearing, you'll need a pivot ball to move the fork closer, or a longer bearing can compensate for a shorter pivot. Adjustable pivots are nice. I have an adjustable pivot and a longer, HD release bearing for this adventure. I have been able to get about the best possible geometry with this setup, There are SEVERAL different release bearing lengths than the 1 or 2 your local parts guy knows.

-----------------------------


I could never get more than about a .020 air gap total, with all the little tricks to get more travel, and when the tranny oil is warm, the car wants to creep and can be hard to shift since the clutch doesn't disengage all the way.

------------------------------


As a fact, there is more play in the aftermarket 67-72 bellcrank swivel assembly than stock. It gives you more pedal free play that you can adjust out with the clutch push rod UNLESS you have manifolds (i have RA manifolds), then the swivel assembly hits the manifold when the clutch pedal isn't pushed out, but the pedal COULD go up more if the assembly allows it. I have made a small extension on the bottom of the swivel assembly where the clutch push rod attaches so that when it rotates, it moves the rod slightly farther, which should give me a little more release than a stock setup. (Not much help but every little bit, right?)

(The slop in the linkage allows the pedal up more too, but the spring on the assembly moves the assembly up, so the pedal doesn't go up more unless you lift it.) It's wasted travel. It's moot, because this still wasn't working when i had long tube headers that weren't in the way. Just noting it. I am working on an adjustable pedal to z bar push rod so that this slop can be adjusted out from the top push rod instead of the bottom, rotating the entire bottom z bar assembly sightly rearward.


----------------------------------


Now to the latest issues. I recently bought a refinished 68 GTO 11" flywheel to keep as a spare in case my adjustable push rod doesn't pan out, and what the seller claims is a matching 11" clutch disc and pressure plate from Ames. I thought switching to exactly OEM parts might sidestep this issue once and for all.

I have a spare hays flywheel (11" and 10" drilled) exactly like the other on my car, sitting on the shelf to measure.

The Ames clutch disc is exactly the same brand as the zoom one. Same part number and company writing on it from Korea.

----

EDIT: Seller confirmed Ames part number PR390AE with this description:

1965-1966 421 & 389 3/4 SPEED, 1967-1970 400 HD, 1969 428 4 SPEED AND 1970-1974 455 3 SPEED - CLUTCH KIT WITH 10 SPLINE - 11 INCH DISC (AP)

----

The hays flywheel (below) has a shallower B dimension than stock, and using just about anything but certain hays discs will have the clutch springs being driven by the bolt heads crammed into them. It took many calls to hays about this. They say to use ARP shallower bolt heads for other discs. The flywheel comes with bolts with barely an 1/8th inch thick head on them, and ARP says they don't make anything like that. So Hays flat out lied to get off the support phone call, and didn't know what they were talking about anyways.

Their final answer is pretty much use a hays clutch setup of certain part numbers that won't interfere, those are your options. I have a full hayes setup and can't get enough travel anyways, and that's even worse than not noting that information on the flywheel specs. "Must use our clutch or it won't work and you'll have to pull the tranny 5 times" The disc they recommend with shallower springs is below.



Now what is interesting about the hays disc, is that it has recessed rivet heads (below) so they can't interfere with anything. The hays flywheel has a larger "A" dimension (below) than stock, so it doesn't matter. No one's rivet heads would interfere, just their springs. Only clutch disc material is hitting the flywheel, so it's all good.

The stock flywheel has a smaller "A" dimension (below) and the supposedly stock replacement disc from Ames, that has rivets on it that are higher than the clutch driven material, would grind on the surface of the stock flywheel and cause all sorts of other problems, besides terrible noise and metal flakes everywhere. (Like pushing the clutch in and the car still going.)

It would SEEM, if they sold this as a stock replacement, that it wouldn't work on a stock flywheel, just an aftermarket one. BUT the hays disc WOULD work, but we hate hays because they don't care about Pontiacs, and we want to get things close to stock so they'll work right.

If you use the Zoom/Ames disc, it SHOULD work only on aftermarket flywheels because of the A dimension, but would rub on the bolt heads on aftermarket flywheels because of the B dimension.


So i'm pretty much exhausted. I'd like to gather as much clutch info, part numbers, pics, combos etc so we have it as a reference, and so we have documented issues to hand to a mfgr like hays or zoom or a warehouser like PY or Ames and say "Fix it or stop listing it as "for pontiac v8""

Below are pictures showing clutch plate and flywheel differences, in my other thread are forks, swivel pictures, etc.

I can post more when the packard is out of the back garage shortly and i can move the Pontiac in to do some work before spring.

PICS:






Edited by - cortcomp on 09 Feb 2011 6:20:03 PM

cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5338 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2011 :  10:57:00 AM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I see a handful of views but no comments...I'm sure someone has put together a clutch setup or 4 spd conversion that ran into issues with parts that a company specified for Pontiac that didn't play ball, or parts indescrepencies over the years (flywheels that were stock that were somehow different from stock, etc.)

What flywheels, clutch brand and size are you guys running that is working for you no problem? What exhaust type? Any play in your swivel linkage? Total travel of fork when the clutch is pressed in?

Thats even more helpful than knowing what doesn't work :-) I would like to catalog good info for others to find after i get mine working well.
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PontiacMatt
Many Ponies

USA
1410 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2011 :  11:03:13 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wish I could help... but I call into the category of folks who will be using this info in the future.

We're going to do a 4 speed conversion on the 70 GTO.

I'll let you go through the trouble, and I'll copy whatever works out right for you!


*72' Pontiac Lemans* - Work in Progress
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Bill Boyle
Horse Feathers (Charter Member)

USA
4797 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2011 :  11:36:35 AM  Show Profile  Visit Bill Boyle's Homepage  Reply with Quote
My buddies and I performed a conversion on our 1957 Chevy Wagon (race car) back in 1968. We used stock Chevy parts, had a local shop build the PP to HD specs (and needed lots of leg to change gears). We found junk yard parts including a transmission to incorporate into our racer. Parts were cheap and it all seemed to come together after a while. That knowledge is only of historical value today and not worth much.

"Dedicated to keeping the classic Pontiac engine alive."

----
400 bored +.030, forged TRW pistons, ported 62 heads, Hedman headers, 2.5 SS dual exhaust X Pypes, Comp 276AH10 cam, Scorpion 1.65 RR, 850 Q-jet, stock intake & tuned HEI; original owner.
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5338 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2011 :  1:19:01 PM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
PontiacMatt - Wise choice! I was hoping to find someone that did the same ahead of me, but nothing exact.

Someone did mention using centerforce components with no issues. Again, most people don't have clutch throw issues anyways, no matter what parts you use. I'd love to find an original car and measure travel at the pedal, upper pushrod, lower zbar arm, lower pushrod and fork. That would let me document differences in aftermarket linkage, and then i could compute throw inside from the arm travel measurement.

It also might be that i just have one bad part, although new, or the pedal i bought don't move the right amount (although i doubt it, it can raise pretty high). You know lots of vendors use chevelle parts and just say they'll fit a GTO/Lemans but there can be subtle differences.
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clintww
Cochise

USA
582 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2011 :  2:21:15 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Comp,

I will sell you all factory parts for 4000.00$ and give you the car for free!!!!
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5338 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2011 :  3:31:49 PM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Clint,

I'm 1/2 of the way there already!

2 hays flywheels, 2 zoom clutches, a hays clutch disc, 3 forks, and one complete hays clutch setup, a factory flywheel and the ames complete clutch setup, numerous pilot bushings and throwout bearings, a pontiac bellhousing alignment tool and two pontiac bellhousings

Thats not including a chunk i have in this when it was just a hydraulic clutch setup with a remote slave cylinder, and then when it was hydraulic with 2 RAM hydraulic release bushings (that kind of worked but the pressure was too much and i blew them...twice.)

I really don't even want to add it all up.

Edited by - cortcomp on 10 Feb 2011 3:32:59 PM
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SteveB
Tribal Scout

1 Posts

Posted - 02 Apr 2011 :  5:56:42 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Newbie here... I ran into a similar problem a few weeks ago with my 78 TA. I picked up the tranny, a flywheel, and most of the linkage from a posting on craigslist. Well, it turned out the flywheel doesn't fit a Pontiac (which of course I didn't find out until I had the old tranny out), so I ran down to Summit and picked up a Hays flywheel.

Anyway, after I put it all together I didn't get anywhere near the 0.030 air gap between the disc and flywheel, and the clutch grabbed right off the floor. I did a google search and came up with this thread.

Let me say a big THANK YOU! for the info you have here, it was really helpful. Especially the part about the flywheel being thinner. Why isn't that in their app notes? Since the flywheels thinner, I went with a thicker throwout bearing. Here's the parts I'm using

Flywheel: Hays 13-230 (should be the same as your 13-130 except the register hole is smaller to fit my 78 400)
Throwout: Hays 70-104
Clutch: Beck/Arnley 0616011 (my 400 is pretty anemic so I didn't go with anything fancy right now, RockAuto had the kit with disc, pressure plate, etc on closeout for $80. This is an 11" clutch)
Fork: AC-Delco 387001 (also from RockAuto)

The fork also has some big "wings" on the sides that I found out interfered with a boss in the belhousing. Grinding some clearance into it probably helped me out too.

It seems to be a lot better now, with the clutch in the disc is completely free with at least 0.040 gap if I remember right. It also grabs at a much more acceptable height off the floor. The fork travel is about 7/8" measured at the pushrod.

Hope this helps, good luck!
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5338 Posts

Posted - 03 Apr 2011 :  10:20:44 AM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the update, part numbers, and dimensions on pushrod travel! The reason i documented all of this was to help others (and to prove i'm not just an idiot who can't figure out a clutch.). I told Bill on the phone, if it helps just one person avoid my frustration, it's been worth it.

I've been out of touch, but i did take the slop out of my new PY/Ames linkage with some welding and 2 big washers. It made a huge difference. I also got an 10.5" LUK clutch, and a flywheel for $178 (flwywheel only price) from a place that claims to make the only "as close to stock as possible" flywheel. I'll post contact info as soon as i get it back in if it works better, they claimed to have trouble like mine with hayes flywheels and won't sell them. (tranny had a leak, so while i had it out i sent it down to get corrected and the right speedo gears in, can't test yet.)

Their flywheel looks like my stock one only with 10.5 holes also and the center counter-bore is a little larger so the rivets wouldn't be an issue. I'm going to be using arp 12 point bolts. I had to weld and cut 4 3/4 wrenches to get the crappy soft headed hayes bolts back out. What an adventure.

I'm still going to be using the heavy duty and tall hayes release bearing, unless when i get it back together it won't fit because of height differences. It really does just seem A LOT more solid compared to the ones that come in the clutch kit.

I think that my issue was a combination of a)needing to use a performance clutch that needed more travel b) poor quality in aftermarket linkage resulting in some travel loss c)thinner hayes flywheel that will only work with performance clutch changing geometery so much that it couldn't be made perfect.

If that theory is correct, the parts i have in hand should solve this.

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ledhed76
Cochise

USA
304 Posts

Posted - 03 Apr 2011 :  5:36:18 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
what is the correct part number for the throwout bearing on my 1976 Formula w/ 4-speed??...it has an 11" clutch and stock flywheel....the long bearing wont work and the short bearing seems too short....the geometry in the linkages has seemed out of whack since i had my tranny rebuilt a few years ago....
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5338 Posts

Posted - 03 Apr 2011 :  9:37:35 PM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
There are several different bearings, but the most common being the GM short. The gm short comes with about every clutch kit. I ordered a pretty tall one from summit for the longer distance and more forward angle i was going for. I'd think the one that came with your clutch kit "should work", but it may not be optimal.

The best thing to do is use the best bearing and pivot ball adjustment to get the best geometry..every clutch brand and flywheel combination etc could be different. Adjustable pivot balls are cheap, and may solve it for you without changing release bearings.

Did you put a new clutch in? Tranny removal or replacement shouldn't affect geometery if the bellhousing is the same. Generally, you want the fork arm forward out of the bellhousing, so that means fork back all the way inside. Longer release bearing and longer pivot ball setting both accomplish. But depending on pressure plate, flywheel etc, you might get the bearing TOO far forward, so you might need a shorter bearing or to back the pivot up some to give the whole fork/bearing assembly room.

Then you can adjust the 1/16th to 1/18th release bearing to pressure plate gap (that's the 1" of pedal free play the manual is talking about) and check with feeler gauges that you have enough clutch air gap so the tranny doesn't drag.
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67drake
Sitting Duck

Azerbaijan
1501 Posts

Posted - 03 Apr 2011 :  11:13:25 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't remember seeing this post originally,I see it's a few months old. Cort, These kind of threads are great because if somebody is looking to switch over to stick,or simply replace their clutch they are armed with some good info to start with.
My 71' GTO was all stock parts to start with,seeing as how it is an original 4 speed car. I put a new 10 1/2" clutch in 3 years ago and this is what I bought.
Centerforce dual friction clutch # CTF-DF161675
Throwout bearing CTF-N1716
These were bought from Summit,so I don't know if these are Centerforce #'s,or Summits. I (as far as I know) still have a stock Pontiac flywheel.
This was pretty much a slam dunk install,everything went right together no problem. I did a lot of searching on the net to see what was working,and not working for other Pontiac guys so I would not run into these hassles.
I just got the car home from winter storage about an hour ago,and one of the first things I need to do this week is inspect the clutch to see how much material is left on it. I would rather do a new clutch now,not after driving season starts. I have about 100 passes on this clutch as well as some hard street time,so I might be due for replacement.
Let me know if you need any info on my set up,and I'll check it out when I'm under the car this week.
BTW,if it is due for replacement,I'll probably replace this with the same parts. I have no complaints against this clutch at all. Racing a heavy car like mine (about 4070 lbs.as raced, with me in it) with only 3.23 gears is asking a lot from a clutch,and it has lasted since the spring of
08'.


71' GTO Original 400 M20 3.23 posi
13.95@102.1 MPH on street tires

Edited by - 67drake on 03 Apr 2011 11:27:17 PM
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5338 Posts

Posted - 04 Apr 2011 :  10:19:09 AM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Good to know there's a 10.5 clutch out there that works. If you're under there, have someone push the pedal and see how much travel there is at the tip of the fork where the push-rod connects, it's good to have that info for different bodies/years.

Again, i think i'll have this issue licked, i really do think it was a combination of the "performance" clutch and sloppy linkage. I've fixed the sloppy linkage and i'll be trying the new clutch. If all works well, i'll list the vendor's info where i got the flywheel. $178 isn't a bad deal at all for a totally new flywheel that's pretty guaranteed to work as stock did.
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455 Formula
Sitting Bull

USA
244 Posts

Posted - 16 Dec 2011 :  7:46:14 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I used a 10.5" clutch behind the Pontiac 350.



I also used the big clutch fork with the 'wings' or 'gussets' on it. I had to relieve a spot of the arm to clear my bellhousing.



With the 413, I went to a Hays 11.00" flywheel. The BEST STREET clutch that I have used to date is actually from Autozone!!! It is part #NU-5551 and it is made by Valeo. It comes with a 1.250" throwout bearing, all you need is the 'Pontiac correct' pilot bearing.

Tech Note: I ONLY use the Timken #202SS pilot bearing

I had some trouble bolting the hays flywheel up to my 1970 'N' 400 crank and had to ream a few of the bolt holes because the bolt circle didn't seem quite on-center and the threaded portion of the bolts were 'dragging' in a couple of the holes.

I used ARP short-head (PRO Series ONLY) 12-point bolts to avoid any bolt/disc interference. The heads are only about 1/8" thick.

Note: On my 1979 Trans Am SE, there was flywheel bolt to clutch disc contact with a STOCK flywheel-STOCK clutch on a 77,000 original mile car!!!

I use the 1.250" throwout bearing with both the 10.5" and 11.00" clutches in my car without issues????

I ONLY use the Timken #202SS double-sealed pilot bearing.

I bored my worn Z-bar and made my own brone bushings:









I also made my own adjuster to avoid the tiny contact point between the fork and adjuster rod:





HTH....Robert

Edited by - 455 Formula on 16 Dec 2011 8:16:57 PM
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5338 Posts

Posted - 16 Dec 2011 :  8:30:29 PM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I used an acorn nut where it contacts the fork, but same theory. The 10.5" clutch i have is the valeo, waiting to go in. I've used a standard pilot bushing, but i may try that timken on this iteration of the project. The hayes flywheel came with those very short bolt heads, and still i had only a few clutch options to go with where the springs wouldn't rub just setting the disk on the flywheel on the bench. You can see the hayes flywheel pic above, the bolt head recess is shallower, so is at more risk.

The PITA with hayes is that they don't tell you this AT ALL up front. They do now, but didn't before i threw a fit and sent angry emails and phone calls. The flywheel pretty much isn't that great because it limits your options. And lets face it, if a flywheel is new and balanced and drilled properly, what issues could really someone have? The no-name one i have now will do 10.5 or 11 clutches, is to stock dimensions, and cheaper than the hayes new.


One main advantage you have here is your Z bar is solid, so there's no play between one end moving and the other. With the 68-72 swivel linkage, there is room for play, and the new aftermarket parts have it. You need to do some serious work out of the box to make it right and efficient.
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5338 Posts

Posted - 16 Dec 2011 :  8:38:06 PM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Interestingly, that bearing seems to have a TON of uses:

"Alternator Commutator End Bearing, Alternator Drive End Bearing, Clutch Pilot Bearing"
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455 Formula
Sitting Bull

USA
244 Posts

Posted - 16 Dec 2011 :  9:04:04 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I used a brass acorn nut at first...quick and cheap. However, only the edge of the nut contacted the fork and my pedal effort was high. The 3/8" steel ball, brazed to a 3/8" threaded coupler 9as shown above) works great and has super-slick pedal effort.

I wouldn't use the Hays flywheel again. I don't like all the issues. Mr. Gasket also offers a very slim-headd flywheel bolt I have had to use before too. I can post part numbers of you like.

When I had my 413 balanced (by Tom Mabry of Tulare, California) I specified balancing the clutch separate from the flywheel. My plan is to send out my factory 10.5" flywheel (from the 350 project) and have it zero balanced for the 413 when I install the new Muncie M22W (2.559 1.752 1.366 1.000) next year.

I figure if we didn't blow up a 10.5" clutch behind my partner's 427 BBC, it will work fine in my 413.

Of note, we made 311 RWHP/325 RWTQ with the Pontiac 350 through an Autozone 10.50" Valeo clutch...Robert
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455 Formula
Sitting Bull

USA
244 Posts

Posted - 16 Dec 2011 :  9:04:38 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cortcomp

Interestingly, that bearing seems to have a TON of uses:

"Alternator Commutator End Bearing, Alternator Drive End Bearing, Clutch Pilot Bearing"



It's a little wider than the 7109 and has a seal on both sides...Robert
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455 Formula
Sitting Bull

USA
244 Posts

Posted - 18 Dec 2011 :  7:33:13 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cortcomp

"The hays flywheel (below) has a shallower B dimension than stock, and using just about anything but certain hays discs will have the clutch springs being driven by the bolt heads crammed into them. It took many calls to hays about this. They say to use ARP shallower bolt heads for other discs. The flywheel comes with bolts with barely an 1/8th inch thick head on them, and ARP says they don't make anything like that. So Hays flat out lied to get off the support phone call, and didn't know what they were talking about anyways...."


The ARP 'Pro Series' flywheel bolt has a very slim, 12-point head. The Mr. Gasket #914 (IIRC) also works as it has a very slim head. I am running the ARP pro Series Bolts and a Valeo clutch on my Hays steel flywheel and have no contact issues...Robert
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5338 Posts

Posted - 18 Dec 2011 :  8:57:56 PM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Good to know. If anyone wants a lighlt used hayes flywheel, no bolts, I have two in the parts boxes.
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455 Formula
Sitting Bull

USA
244 Posts

Posted - 19 Dec 2011 :  12:58:36 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think the factory flywheels are better, IMHO. I hate new stuff that has to be fiddled with to make it work...Robert
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5338 Posts

Posted - 19 Dec 2011 :  1:21:00 PM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Exactly why i found a place that makes them to factory dimensions, and why these are on the shelf :)
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455 Formula
Sitting Bull

USA
244 Posts

Posted - 19 Dec 2011 :  1:39:23 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sorry, I must have missed that in your post. Who is it that is making them to OEM depth????
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5338 Posts

Posted - 19 Dec 2011 :  1:45:05 PM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Kajun enterprises i believe? I was going to post their info only if it worked, but since i haven't gotten to that point yet again, here's the info i received from them before i purchased:

"No, it is NOT a Hays. We do not like them, because they do not fit the stock flywheels because of the depth of the countersunk hole.
THIS FLYWHEEL is a reproduction of the ORIGINAL flywheels.
I do ot have the specs on the flywheels and I do not have anything to measure it EXACTLY.
It will fit the stock clutches. The diameter is 14" and fits the Pontiac Engines.
We have sold probably 500 or more of these and have not had any problem with them as to fitting the Pontiacs IF you use the stock clutches.
THANK YOU for your interest and your inquiry, Kajun Jon 254-694-6600
"

They recommended and sent a Valeo 10.5 clutch, but the flywheel was drilled for 10.5 and 11 sizes.
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455 Formula
Sitting Bull

USA
244 Posts

Posted - 19 Dec 2011 :  3:17:05 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I know 'Kajun Jon.' I've picked up a lot of T-10 parts from him recently for a W-72 restoration project. Thanks for the info as I didn't know he was doing flywheels.

My guess is, it is an aftermarket wheel that has the recess deepened.

Can't go wrong with Valeo's on a street car IMHO...Robert
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Phil
The Great White Buffalo

USA
7222 Posts

Posted - 27 Dec 2011 :  4:44:10 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Robert, I going to hate myself for asking this but did you clock the flywheel to the crank before you had issues with the bolts lining up?

Bowties are for Pee-wee Herman. "Chevy": even the name sounds cheap, but not as cheap as your Pontiac will be with an LS transplant.
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455 Formula
Sitting Bull

USA
244 Posts

Posted - 30 Dec 2011 :  3:13:36 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Phil

Robert, I going to hate myself for asking this but did you clock the flywheel to the crank before you had issues with the bolts lining up?



You know, I thought I was going crazy on that flywheel installation!!!!!

My flywheel would only line all the bolts up in one position. There is a 5/16" pin in the crank flange that indexes into a hole in the flywheel. I tried it with and without the index pin.

It was frustrating to me that it gave me a problem. Even when I tried it on several other Pontiac cranks I had in the shop, it didn't fit right.

The name 'Hays' could be clearly seen on the flywheel, but I guess it could be a 'knock-off'.

I recently had a set of E-Bay Hylift-Johnson Pontiac lifters that were in counterfeit boxes with a bar code the manufacturer couldn't scan!!!!

From what I could see, one hole was just a little bit off-center, which shouldn't be possible with modern manufacturing methods, but I had to ream that hole oversize to get the bolt to fit without 'threading' the hole at the 3 O'clock position....Robert
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5338 Posts

Posted - 30 Dec 2011 :  6:34:22 PM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
There was no aliganment pin on any of my combinations, but the holes would seemingly only line up one way.
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455 Formula
Sitting Bull

USA
244 Posts

Posted - 30 Dec 2011 :  7:09:15 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cortcomp

There was no aliganment pin on any of my combinations, but the holes would seemingly only line up one way.



My 1970 'N' 400 crank has a dowel pin in the flange and my Hays flywheel has the corresponding hole to receive it.

In 2007, I bought a stock Pontiac flywheel from Mr. P-Body for one of my cars and it too had the dowel pin hole...

Edited by - 455 Formula on 30 Dec 2011 7:10:45 PM
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5338 Posts

Posted - 28 Jun 2012 :  02:01:01 AM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
As an update to this, i've made some headway getting slop out of the linkage, but been busy with other work on the car.

I've found that BOP clutch pedals are actually different than chevelle (and most repop are chevelle style) Our original part number for 68-72 a bodies is 1231313. I have some questions out to some that might know what's different between the pedals (maybe the BOP pedal has the pushrod bracket closer to the bottom of the pedal for more travel.) The repop pedal's i bought from the parts place as supposed to match that BOP style and not be chevelle clones. We'll see if any of my questions i sent out come back tomorrow morning. On top of all that, some have used chevelle pedals in BOP a bodies and apparently worked. With almost no freeplay on the release bearing, i do get full release now, but i'd like to get it right.
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Total Jackass
Tribal Scout

0 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2014 :  04:33:39 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Q. How much do pirates pay for their earrings?
http://www.dressthree.com/

I'm a first class jerk and don't you forget it!
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Phil
The Great White Buffalo

USA
7222 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2014 :  6:36:27 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
TTT

Bowties are for Pee-wee Herman. "Chevy": even the name sounds cheap, but not as cheap as your Pontiac will be with an LS transplant.
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PF400
Tribal Scout

1 Posts

Posted - 06 Aug 2014 :  07:43:39 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I thought i would pick this thread up again as i have very recently been trying out different clutch discs on my 1st Gen Firebird race car. It's fitted with a 400ci running 450hp/450lbft, Richmond T10.

The motor is fitted with a Hays aluminum flywheel 23-130 and i originally ran a Hays 49-221 super connector clutch disc, this disc did mate to the flywheel without any clearance issues, although if you are running ARP fly bolts, it is very close, so you may want to remove the washers.

Unfortunately this clutch disc didnt last long with hard starts so i have purchased a RAM 980 clutch disc which is organic/composite combination. I have trial fitted it and there is no clearance issue with this clutch disc either.

Both of these clutch discs have 8 smaller springs mounted in the main body of the clutch disc, which seems to help the clearance issue with the Hays flywheel.

I also tried a Hays 40-221 clutch disc and this had 5 larger springs in the carrier - this definately had clearance issues with the Hays flywheel and i believe the only way to overcome it is to fit the low shoulder bolts which are supplied with the Hays flywheels. the ARP bolts have too deep a shoulder.

I've spent a fair bit of time researching this so i hope this helps others.

If you are running a Hays flywheel, i'd recommend fitting the bolts supplied with it as they have a low shoulder, this should deal with the clearance issue.

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