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Bill Boyle
Horse Feathers (Charter Member)
USA
1593 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Mar 2010 : 2:56:50 PM
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Here's my current engine combination:
+.030 400 (406 cid)
heads: iron #62; ported and gasket matched; .008 deck clearance
Chambers: polished/ 79 ccs.
Rockers: Scorpion RR 1.65 ratio
Camshaft: Comp Cams 276AH-10 hydraulic on a 107 intake centerline; lift .520" intake and exhaust; 228 intake / 236 exhaust duration @ .050"
Static compression: 9.6: 1
gasoline: 93 octane Mobil
Ignition: HEI set at 14 degrees initial/ 36 full mechanical/ 46 part throttle w/ vac; all in by 2400 rpm
Intake: Stock EGR intake (dimpled unit) with 1979 800 CFM q-jet
Exhaust: Hedman, ceramic coated/ 1.75" primaries w 3" collectors; 2.5" exhaust with X crossover and hi flow transverse crossflow muffler/ 2.5" tailpipes
all reciprocating parts balanced
Does this engine make 1 hp per cubic inch of displacement?
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"Dedicated to keeping the classic Pontiac engine alive."
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Edited by - Bill Boyle on 12 Mar 2010 2:57:43 PM |
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Taman
Cochise
USA
583 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2010 : 6:56:27 PM
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| I think you will be well above 406 hp. Even with being conservative. 400+ hp is easy on a 400.I want to submit mine but I wish we could do it online instead of mailing everything in. My 462 makes 575 hp on pump gas. |
Everything Under The Sun Is Intune |
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Bill Boyle
Horse Feathers (Charter Member)
USA
1593 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2010 : 7:35:09 PM
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Chris-- burn all the pertinent information about your engine to a cd and mail it to me. Don't send me links that require me to hunt down the information. I have to share the info with 3 other judges.
Bill
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"Dedicated to keeping the classic Pontiac engine alive."
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Bill Boyle
Horse Feathers (Charter Member)
USA
1593 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2010 : 7:49:03 PM
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My combination was designed to make at least the minimum hp of 406 to make the club. My son Billy has said it kind of sucked that I couldn't be in my own club. So, maybe I'll finally get in. 
If it makes the minimum that will be good; if it makes more, "icing on the cake" so to speak.
Anyone else with an opinion?
[navy][font=Comic Sans MS]Other things were not mentioned in the combo, that are not really necessary--like
TRW forged pistons, spring height, lifters, etc. I also didn't go into the extent of porting, but it's serious.
Camquest is cool. I've used it in the past and found it helpful. The 276AH cam was selected after I spotted wear on the lifters and 270H grind during the head swap. The 276AH should help me make the grade.  |
"Dedicated to keeping the classic Pontiac engine alive."
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Edited by - Bill Boyle on 12 Mar 2010 7:57:32 PM |
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Kiwi Mal
Cochise
New Zealand
551 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2010 : 10:52:39 PM
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| I'm picking it will but not by a huge amount. Good luck. |
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Phil
Great White Buffalo
3181 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2010 : 12:53:46 PM
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| Bill, I guess I better get my info. together as well and send it to you. |
Bowties are for Peewee Herman |
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Vid
Cochise
USA
581 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2010 : 3:44:31 PM
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Bill, I think most of us here are very appreciative of your website efforts would unanimously vote you into at least the 2 to 1 club.
I hope your motor makes it so you can be a member of your own club! 
Meanwhile I intend on founding the 3/4:1 club for the rest of us, LOL
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""I'll get around to that NEXT weekend..."
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phil400
Sitting Bull
142 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2010 : 4:37:21 PM
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I'm no expert but it must atleast gross brake HP anyways.
in the end its just a number if it puts a grin on your face from ear to ear,thats all that matters
just my .02 |
78T/A4-SPEED |
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Bill Boyle
Horse Feathers (Charter Member)
USA
1593 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2010 : 4:53:04 PM
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Q-jet isn't operating correctly--only primaries--so right now maybe 1/2 of 1hp per cid.  |
"Dedicated to keeping the classic Pontiac engine alive."
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Phil
Great White Buffalo
3181 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2010 : 5:59:36 PM
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| More like 1/3rd! ;) |
Bowties are for Peewee Herman |
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Taman
Cochise
USA
583 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2010 : 5:11:06 PM
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| It's I AM BEING LAZY. It's my own fault. As soon as I can get my scanner working, I will do it. I will actually have time when my wife and kids go see grandma for a week. I will copy everything and mail it off if my scanner is still messed up. Hope Bill isn't as lazy as me and he will make it. |
Everything Under The Sun Is Intune |
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goatasaurus rex
Sitting Bull
140 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2010 : 10:25:33 PM
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| 400's are lame |
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PontiacMatt
Cochise
USA
659 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2010 : 11:01:44 PM
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I kind of designed my engine with hopes of making the 1 to 1 club as well....
Been trying to get an appointment with my engine/dyno guy to get in there. was actually hoping to do it this week, as I'm on Spring Break. unfortunately he's having "minor" surgery this week. Gonna try it in a couple weeks... crossing my fingers!
467 will be the magic number for me... gonna be tuff.
-Matt
EDIT: Forgot to mention, Bill I think that dude will have little trouble making the club, with a properly working carb of course. |
*72' Pontiac Lemans* - Work in Progress |
Edited by - PontiacMatt on 14 Mar 2010 11:03:53 PM |
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RayK
Cochise
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2010 : 9:17:30 PM
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| Bill, you are the BMFIC so why can't you just put yourself there? LOL |
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Pontiac Dude
Sitting Bull
USA
111 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2010 : 12:58:51 PM
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Can't seem to find anything about aftermarket Pontiac blocks allowed in the 1 to 1 club?
Show up to a 455 but allowing strokers? |
## 1976 T/A, Hydraulic roller, 3425lbs, stock suspension & Pump gas. N/A: 9.78@136 ##
Your Hydraulic Roller Street/Strip Engine Specialist
ATI ProCharger Dealer. PONTIAC blow thru setups for Traditional Pontiac engines.
http://PontiacDude.cc
Feel free to call 352-796-8800 weekdays, PM or e-mail. [email]pdsales@tampabay.rr.com[/email]
I Specialize in ALL American Muscle Iron. |
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Bill Boyle
Horse Feathers (Charter Member)
USA
1593 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2010 : 2:03:31 PM
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| Ken--a very small number of Pontiac enthusiasts own aftermarket styled Pontiac blocks. The aftermarket engine block community tends to get them for racing purposes...there are exceptions, I suppose. The 1 to 1 Club was created to encourage the 99+% of traditional PMD engine owners to be recognized for building their engines to meet or exceed the 1 to 1 Hp criteria. With regards to aftermarket blocks, I'm not sure I've even seen an aftermarket IA or MR block that did not meet or exceed it's displacement in power when completed. Are you proposing that aftermarket blocks be included in the fray? Is carburetion only to restrictive? What about nitrous, turbos and chargers? Should they be permitted? |
"Dedicated to keeping the classic Pontiac engine alive."
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Pontiac Dude
Sitting Bull
USA
111 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2010 : 2:22:04 PM
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I have built 16 street IA engines over the years. And now that 4.5 cranks are available you can do 500 cu.in. plus combos. So what would be the difference other then bore? None.
Don't have any issues, just asking where the line is drawn as far as Pontiac parts. You can build a Pontiac engine with a factory block and use ALL aftermarket parts too.
N/A is fine.
But building a 1 to 1 engine now-a-days is a no brainer.
350/350hp? That can be done in one's sleep. LOL.
But building a 1 to 1 for everyday high mileage use, might not be what some want with there rides.
Just trying to get a grip on the rules and what the purpose is.
Not trying to stir anything, just asked if the Aftermarket blocks are included in the 1 to 1 Pontiac engine club?
BTW: 6 out of the 9 listed are stroker combos anyway.
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## 1976 T/A, Hydraulic roller, 3425lbs, stock suspension & Pump gas. N/A: 9.78@136 ##
Your Hydraulic Roller Street/Strip Engine Specialist
ATI ProCharger Dealer. PONTIAC blow thru setups for Traditional Pontiac engines.
http://PontiacDude.cc
Feel free to call 352-796-8800 weekdays, PM or e-mail. [email]pdsales@tampabay.rr.com[/email]
I Specialize in ALL American Muscle Iron. |
Edited by - Pontiac Dude on 18 Mar 2010 2:26:10 PM |
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Admin
Ye Olde Webmaster
306 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2010 : 6:14:40 PM
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Ken (Pontiac Dude) stated: "But building a 1 to 1 engine now-a-days is a no brainer."
That gives us all hope! 
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"Dedicated to keeping the classic Pontiac engine alive." |
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Pontiac Dude
Sitting Bull
USA
111 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2010 : 1:09:25 PM
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| And your 1 to club list should be 20 pages long. |
## 1976 T/A, Hydraulic roller, 3425lbs, stock suspension & Pump gas. N/A: 9.78@136 ##
Your Hydraulic Roller Street/Strip Engine Specialist
ATI ProCharger Dealer. PONTIAC blow thru setups for Traditional Pontiac engines.
http://PontiacDude.cc
Feel free to call 352-796-8800 weekdays, PM or e-mail. [email]pdsales@tampabay.rr.com[/email]
I Specialize in ALL American Muscle Iron. |
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Admin
Ye Olde Webmaster
306 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2010 : 9:10:36 PM
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Yes, I agree Ken. There are lots of engines out there yearning for recognition ( if only their owners would submit the application for review) 20 pages of engines could be listed.
Ken--you're an engine expert--do you think my 406 (in theory) should make 1 hp per cubic inch or more power when tuned? ( A penny for your thoughts.)
Bill
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"Dedicated to keeping the classic Pontiac engine alive." |
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Christ
Crazy Horse
USA
1295 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2010 : 11:32:34 PM
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Bill,
There plenty of motors out there that are capable of producing those numbers.But if there not assembled correctly and tuned correctly they will not. |
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goatasaurus rex
Sitting Bull
140 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2010 : 5:11:41 PM
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| chain jerk for you bill ;) |
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Mr. P-Body
Running Bear
USA
1507 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2010 : 6:10:24 PM
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Bill,
As a "judge", I can't really get into the discussion, but I assure you, your component "collection" WILL break 410 HP (in its sleep).
Ken has a legitimate question regarding aftermarket blocks, but I think HIS "answer" is correct. The ONLY difference is the bore size available, and therefore should be allowed. All the "power making" stuff is same for the IA-II as it is for a ragedy 400.
It's also true, with today's available parts and "knowledge gained" since olden times, 1:1 IS a no-brainer.
Ken,
We DO have "rules". That is, a legitimate dyno pull or 1/4 MPH (or ET, I suppose, but MPH means more regarding HP) is necessary to be accepted to the "club". Another "Ken" wanted a magazine article to be his "proof", but when pressed to get the correct documentation, he copped a MAJOR attitude and said some rather uncomplimentary things to and about Bill. He thought he was "above" the rules. He also failed to understand without dyno pulls specific to THAT engine, he couldn't prove what the magazine article said. (imagine my surprise...)
ALL of my customers' engines that are "in" the club, were "judged" by Bill, Cliff and Brian Baker. Since I was the builder, I didn't get a "vote". As a "sitting judge", I would be involved in Bill's, yours or any others that come around.
The "Club" isn't to "wow" anyone or make a "statement". It IS for the fun of car owners to be proud of their stuff, and a chance for the non-believers (outside the Pontiac "world") to see we too, can make the power.
I was thinking, maybe we should have a 3.5:1 club, too. Anyone? Anyone?
Jim |
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goatasaurus rex
Sitting Bull
140 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2010 : 7:31:16 PM
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| wow jim, 3.5 to 1 is some pretty rare air. 505x3.5=1767.5 and 535x3.5=1872.5 |
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mike mcarthur
Pony that Jumps
USA
1303 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2010 : 11:57:27 PM
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| Playing with the Ha,Ha car too much lately Jim? |
It's the stuff you learn after you know it all that's important |
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Kiwi Mal
Cochise
New Zealand
551 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2010 : 12:35:47 AM
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| Perhaps the aftermarket blocks users should have to make 1.5 to 1. There options are greater. |
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goatasaurus rex
Sitting Bull
140 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2010 : 07:59:52 AM
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| kiwi, i would suspect Dirty Bird is somewhere around 5X |
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Mr. P-Body
Running Bear
USA
1507 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2010 : 08:37:19 AM
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Nope. 4:1... (:- 475 CID, 1890 HP. Okay, 3.978:1...
Jim |
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goatasaurus rex
Sitting Bull
140 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2010 : 3:05:04 PM
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| only 1890, that is a very conservative tune! |
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Phil
Great White Buffalo
3181 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2010 : 3:10:19 PM
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| Hmmm, howabout a 0.66:1 club for my Moms '80' Turbo TA? |
Bowties are for Peewee Herman |
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Mr. P-Body
Running Bear
USA
1507 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2010 : 08:41:51 AM
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g-rex,
The 1,890 "figure" comes from a calculator that uses MPH (1/4 mile) and vehicle weight to determine HP. Nobody around here anyway, would allow us to put the car ona chassis dyno. Can't say as I blame them. The amount of torque this thing makes would certainly "hurt" one.
This is the "training" engine. We had an idea of what we wanted to accomplish, and this is the first "result". Truth be known, it has actually exceeded our initial expectations. Adding compression (10.3:1 right now, 11.8 is considered "max" for a blown/alcohol "wedge") would easily put us over the 2,000 "mark". If we have to rebuild it again anytime soon, it will get the flat-tops.
We have a design "on paper" for a 2,800 HP engine of larger displacement. More cylinder head is going to be needed. We're not sure yet, if Tiger is capable of supporting the 500-plus CFM we'll need. There are a couple of Ram Air V designs floating to the "surface". We feel this may be our best chance and stay "Pontiac". Time and "budget" will tell!
Jim
Jim |
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PontiacMatt
Cochise
USA
659 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2010 : 09:22:00 AM
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| Jim, Pontiacs potentially makin 2,800 HP!?! that's awesome. I can't wait to see some of the RA-V stuff getting being used! should be quite impressive!!! |
*72' Pontiac Lemans* - Work in Progress |
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Jeff Fritchie
White Buffalo
80 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2010 : 01:50:10 AM
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| hey bill i was just looking at your post for the one to one club and i think that it can break in to the club. with that said i need some help on finding the math that is used to for the judges to say its making that kind of power. as I said in my other post greg norvell was running 12.3 at 111 and was elected for the 1 to 1 club with that he would have needed to be making at least 461 hp to run that time i know he has 3.25 gears in his car and a 1.9 60 ft I'm not doubting his car or the judges his car is running even faster now just trying to get the rule of thumb on et and mph and what that means to the judges thanks for the help. Jeff |
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Bill Boyle
Horse Feathers (Charter Member)
USA
1593 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2010 : 11:43:15 AM
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Jeff--we don't rely on any calculator to determine hp to displacement ratio. That doesn't mean we don't use or look at them. At the strip we are looking at two things for the most part, total car weight and mph through the traps. We don't penalize a car, since we are celebrating engine performance, by just looking at ET. Too many variable there besides, we build for power not ET. A great ET is the result of all things coming together. We like when there are compatible ET and mph, but it's not a prerequisite.
For example, looking at Tom Worrall's 67 Lemans with a 434 cid engine. The car is turning 115 mph and the car weighs in at 3715. It runs 11.7s or better all the time.
Taking those numbers and putting them into a calculator like this one, it shows hp well above the 1 to 1 criteria. http://www.cprparts.com/HPcalculator.html
Whether the mph or ET formula, the engine makes more than 1 hp per cubic inch. The actual numbers are meaningless as long as they indicate 1 to 1. We also rely on experience to guide us. The judges are knowledgeable and have built and raced vehicles as well as built engines. I can't speak for Brian Baker, Jim LeHart of Cliff Ruggles, but my racing experience is limited to stock class racing in the 60s and very little bracket racing in the 90s. However, I've made Pontiac power a study and have a pretty good sense on what it takes to make 1 hp per cid in a Pontiac. Jim is an engine builder and builds potent street/strip cars. Cliff races his car and has been messing with Pontiac engines for a while. He's also performed dyno runs on various Pontiacs. Brian Baker has also raced and studied this stuff for a good number of years and has a sense of what combination of parts and machining makes good power. From time to time, we get a no brainer; sometimes its more difficult. Greg Norvell was right on the cusp. Old posts of mine kept egging Greg on to do more tuning. His car finally ran the mph and that convinced us that his engine had arrived.
Let's go a step further. I want to make the club myself. With the ported heads, bigger cam, fully calibrated ignition and carb, new headers and free flowing exhaust, I am hoping my "little" 406 can make the power and prove it. I believe the parts are in place; I'm not sure about the ET though.
If we take my car weight of 3800 what mph would I need to show in the 1/4. My experience tells me 106 mph or better. BTW, that will be an increase of 10 mph over my quickest et with this basic block. That's a big jump. Going back to that calculator. The numbers would show 424 hp at the flywheel. My personal guess is that my engine produces closer to 410 hp. This is not as vast a difference between the numbers as with Tom's car, but I'm speculating to eek out the minimum. If it were to show over 106, 107, let's say, the calculator results jump a bit.
Engine dyno results are the most convincing for me. Strip results require more to consider.
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"Dedicated to keeping the classic Pontiac engine alive."
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David Jones
White Buffalo
47 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2010 : 4:26:38 PM
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http://www.cprparts.com/HPcalculator.html
If one goes by that calculator and uses 3750 as my GTO's weight and add me (205) into the cars weight (total of 3955) and my last trap speed of 105.44 then my little ole 406 gets in the club with 434 crankshaft horsepower. Am I looking at that correctly? Should I apply?
TRW pistons .030, stock crank and rods.
Comp 220/224 hyd roller with .513/.528 lift
HS roller rockers 1.50
Edelbrock P4B-QJ intake.port/gasket matched
Dougs headers
David Jones built 800cfm qjet
#48 heads, lightly ported
3.55 rear/Turbo 400
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Edited by - David Jones on 20 May 2010 4:33:03 PM |
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goatasaurus rex
Sitting Bull
140 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2010 : 9:45:54 PM
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| i think that calculator is whacked. using a 3600 weight with driver, based on mph my 406 makes 502 fwhp and 539 based on et? i have positive evidence to the contrary. |
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Jeff Fritchie
White Buffalo
80 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2010 : 9:55:59 PM
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Bill thank you for the reply that gives me a better idea on what you look at. I was not questioning the decision just thought there might be a rule of thumb the judges went by thank you
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Bill Boyle
Horse Feathers (Charter Member)
USA
1593 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2010 : 10:21:55 PM
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| Bob--that's why calculators are not the final word. |
"Dedicated to keeping the classic Pontiac engine alive."
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sixt8bird
Chief Many Horses
USA
426 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2010 : 11:24:45 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Boyle
Jeff--we don't rely on any calculator to determine hp to displacement ratio. That doesn't mean we don't use or look at them. At the strip we are looking at two things for the most part, total car weight and mph through the traps. We don't penalize a car, since we are celebrating engine performance, by just looking at ET. Too many variable there besides, we build for power not ET. A great ET is the result of all things coming together. We like when there are compatible ET and mph, but it's not a prerequisite.
For example, looking at Tom Worrall's 67 Lemans with a 434 cid engine. The car is turning 115 mph and the car weighs in at 3715. It runs 11.7s or better all the time.
Taking those numbers and putting them into a calculator like this one, it shows hp well above the 1 to 1 criteria. http://www.cprparts.com/HPcalculator.html
Whether the mph or ET formula, the engine makes more than 1 hp per cubic inch. The actual numbers are meaningless as long as they indicate 1 to 1. We also rely on experience to guide us. The judges are knowledgeable and have built and raced vehicles as well as built engines. I can't speak for Brian Baker, Jim LeHart of Cliff Ruggles, but my racing experience is limited to stock class racing in the 60s and very little bracket racing in the 90s. However, I've made Pontiac power a study and have a pretty good sense on what it takes to make 1 hp per cid in a Pontiac. Jim is an engine builder and builds potent street/strip cars. Cliff races his car and has been messing with Pontiac engines for a while. He's also performed dyno runs on various Pontiacs. Brian Baker has also raced and studied this stuff for a good number of years and has a sense of what combination of parts and machining makes good power. From time to time, we get a no brainer; sometimes its more difficult. Greg Norvell was right on the cusp. Old posts of mine kept egging Greg on to do more tuning. His car finally ran the mph and that convinced us that his engine had arrived.
Let's go a step further. I want to make the club myself. With the ported heads, bigger cam, fully calibrated ignition and carb, new headers and free flowing exhaust, I am hoping my "little" 406 can make the power and prove it. I believe the parts are in place; I'm not sure about the ET though.
If we take my car weight of 3800 what mph would I need to show in the 1/4. My experience tells me 106 mph or better. BTW, that will be an increase of 10 mph over my quickest et with this basic block. That's a big jump. Going back to that calculator. The numbers would show 424 hp at the flywheel. My personal guess is that my engine produces closer to 410 hp. This is not as vast a difference between the numbers as with Tom's car, but I'm speculating to eek out the minimum. If it were to show over 106, 107, let's say, the calculator results jump a bit.
Engine dyno results are the most convincing for me. Strip results require more to consider.
Wow, it shows my HP at 445hp at the flywheel from mph and 465hp by using ET with my budget 400. |
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Mr. P-Body
Running Bear
USA
1507 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2010 : 1:22:27 PM
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To interject...
We've found SOME of the weight versus MPH calculators to be somewhat accurate. Others ARE "out to lunch". For Wayne Green's old '66 to go 10.20s over 125 MPH said it would have right at 800 HP at 3,780 lbs. (race weight). There is absolutely NO WAY that engine was making more than 650. It was, however, making over 650 lb. ft. of torque, too! I don't believe the calculator had "factored" that in...
All things aren't always as they "appear". This seems over time, to be ESPECIALLY true when you add Pontiacs into the "mix"... A different "animal" to be sure!
Jim |
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Poll: Has my engine made it into the 1 to 1 Club
