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ledhed76
White Buffalo
USA
42 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Mar 2010 : 9:08:24 PM
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(I posted this in the Firebird section but it looks like this is where the action is on the boards...sorry mods)
well i am new to the site so let me give you my spill....i am 28 and live just outside Charlotte, NC....when i was 15 my dad bought me a 1976 Formula 6.6L, 4-speed, 3.23 posi, black on black for my first car....it was a litte rough when we got it...after a few months of work it became road worthy and my daily driver (gas was a lot chaper then)...well we tinkered on it for for 2 years turning it into a pretty reliable and mechanically sound car....i actually spun the bearings on the engine and we did a complete driveline swap from a wrecked 76 formula we bought for 800 bucks...i then went off to college and my beloved bird sat in the weather for 5 years barely getting driven and collecting even more rust in the typical spots...i moved around some after school but 3 years ago came back towards home and took possession of my bird again...i have had it out of the weather now for a good while...anyways, the laws in NC have prevented me from really doing anything with my car until now because of the emission regulations...now my car will be classified as an "antique auto" in 2011 because it will be 35 years old i am ready to play with it some...i just got it inspected for the last time in february....now on to my point...i want to eventually do a pretty extensive restoration on my car but not yet....i dont really have the money now or the time (just bought a house and got married)....all i am looking to do is wake my car up some....last weekend i just put a Pypes X pipe system on it with downpipes off the stock manifolds (didn't want to deal with header heat again) and street pro mufflers....it sounds freaking awesome...probably sounds a lot meaner than it really is....what other basic mods would you guys recommend in order to get some more power out of my old engine/car....i want to have some fun with it for a few years before i decide to take it completely out of service ....i was thinking an edelbrock performer intake, holley 670 street avenger, high flow mechanical fuel pump, flamethrower HEI, new plugs, new wires, etc....the car is pretty stock now except for the exhaust but it is very reliable and mechanically sound....let me know what you guys think/recommend....thanks for reading... |
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ledhed76
White Buffalo
USA
42 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2010 : 10:41:44 PM
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| btw, i know that with my 6X heads, the 7.6:1 compression ratio is really what limits me...this is what i am trying to work around... |
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Christ
Crazy Horse
USA
1294 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2010 : 10:44:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ledhed76
btw, i know that with my 6X heads, the 7.6:1 compression ratio is really what limits me...this is what i am trying to work around...
Nitrous 125 shot! |
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phil400
Sitting Bull
141 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2010 : 10:47:16 PM
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Welcome sounds like a nice car.I would keep the Qjet and rebuild it and the only gain with the performer is weight saving.
A good tune up never hurts.before you buy a new distributer check make sure yours needs replacing the stock HEI is more than enough.if its OK just try a recurve.
Next step would be cam and headers if compression checks out ok I'm no pro but i would start with that,Hopefully others with more experience will chime in.
On another note 4-speeds all the way
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78T/A4-SPEED |
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Kiwi Mal
Cochise
New Zealand
549 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2010 : 01:26:34 AM
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quote:
i was thinking an edelbrock performer intake, holley 670 street avenger, high flow mechanical fuel pump, flamethrower HEI,
Welcome to the site.
All the factory intake, carb, fuel pump & HEI will perform just as well. The Q jet if rebuilt properly better than the Holley. 670cfm seems a bit small for a 400. You should have a 750cfm |
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Edited by - Kiwi Mal on 09 Mar 2010 01:46:11 AM |
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Bill Boyle
Horse Feathers (Charter Member)
USA
1592 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2010 : 07:31:18 AM
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| I agree with Mal and Phil, the original HEI, intake, carb and fuel pump are fine, no need to change them. The place you need to go is the valve train including the heads. Increasing compression can be done by changing the heads you are currently using. If you were to obtain the smaller chambered 6x-4 heads, mill them down to 89 ccs or so, install new springs and SS valves in them and add a 262 XE Comp Cam, you'd really wake up the performance of the engine. Of course, the carb, hei and other components must be in good running condition to do it. This would still be a low compression 89 octane engine. |
"Dedicated to keeping the classic Pontiac engine alive."
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Edited by - Bill Boyle on 09 Mar 2010 07:32:11 AM |
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ledhed76
White Buffalo
USA
42 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2010 : 07:37:40 AM
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| the quadrajet was rebuilt properly by my old man about 12 years ago and probably doesnt have 5k miles on it since....so you guys are saying there is no performance gains from going to the edelbrock intake??....that is interesting....if i went to the holley and edelbrock intake i could get rid of the EGR and all the vacuum line mess under the hood....i dont want headers right now...i have been down that road as a teenager....i cooked a lot of starters and ended up breaking them on a railroad track... |
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bnorris_74
Cochise
USA
511 Posts |
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Mr. P-Body
Running Bear
USA
1506 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2010 : 08:27:41 AM
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The factory intakes flow quite well. Even the ugly EGR units are good.
The modern approach to headers is to have them coated with a "thermal barrier". This will keep under-hood heat "down" AND protect the headers from the elements. Headers are the single biggest power gain you can "bolt on". An alternative is to use Ram Air Restorations' "HO exhaust" manifolds. They're as effective as the less expensive headers while still providing the "quiet" and heat retention of stock manifolds.
For a mild 400, Bill is correct. XE262H is about the best cam we've found.
When rebuilding the 400, replace the rods with forgings. Cheap "insurance" against the weakest "link" in the Pontiac "chain". The RPM ("Tomahawk") 5140 forgings are fine for a mild build, and cost only a little more than reconditioning the original cast rods. Eagle H-beams are the "premium" forging readily available. Speed Pro forged pistons are also very popular. For a bit more money, the Icon (Keith Black) forgings are "better" (lighter).
I highly recommend you get Jim Hand's "How to Build Max-performance Pontiac V8s" published by SA Designs. This is the only current study of the ol' Injun and will answer a lot of questions concerning the difference between the Pontiac and other engine "families". Things like the intakes is covered "in depth". Lots of misconceptions out there. It is NOT a "Chevy" and must be treated as such.
Jim |
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Bill Boyle
Horse Feathers (Charter Member)
USA
1592 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2010 : 09:02:21 AM
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The "ugly" as Jim Lehart (Mr. P-Body) calls the dimpled EGR stock intake from the mid '70s is not a bad intake at all. For a clean look, many things can be capped off. Granted it will not look at "pretty" as an Edlebrock Performer intake, but you can paint the stock unit silver and that will give it a different look.
Over the years, we've learned that many of the aftermarket items typically sold as part of the Chevy world when duplicated for Pontiac were in fact not quite as good as the original stock units from Pontiac. We've also discovered that minor changes to many stock pieces can add flow and enhance performance. One of our Pontiac leaders in discovery is Jim Hand. Much of his work was done with a firm hold on the wallet. He has found things and revealed them in his book. These things work.
Based on your first post, you have a mechanically sound engine. You're on a budget and to go all out and spend thousands of dollars is out of the question.
My recommendation to keep the intake, the Q-jet, the HEI, are based on budget as well as performance. These are not weak points. Moving to an Edelbrock Performer intake will save you some weight, give you a cleaner look, give a modified look to your engine, but not provide any "waking up" of your engine.
To improve performance on a budget, adding a point of compression with smaller heads and using a modern cam will wake up your engine.
What Mr. P-body describes is right on but at a price. He speaks from experience and knows what it takes to build powerful street/strip Pontiac engines.
If you can locate a set of 6x-4 small chambered heads, send them out to Mr P-body for reconditioning. He's in Southern VA; not too far from you.
Making good street power is pretty simple with a Pontiac and it can be done with basic Pontiac parts. Driving a fun-filled 13 sec Formula is very possible without going into debt.
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"Dedicated to keeping the classic Pontiac engine alive."
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mike mcarthur
Pony that Jumps
USA
1299 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2010 : 11:55:06 AM
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| Leave it alone until you are ready to build the engine. The Q-Jet is miles ahead of that Holley. The other things you mention aren't going to make it any faster. Save your money and when you are ready to go into the engine get with Mr P-body (Jim) and do what he says. |
It's the stuff you learn after you know it all that's important |
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ledhed76
White Buffalo
USA
42 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2010 : 12:16:59 PM
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| what about a cam only swap?....i was looking to dump maybe only $1000 into it right now.... |
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Mr. P-Body
Running Bear
USA
1506 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2010 : 1:11:40 PM
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Using XE262H and a well calibrated Q-Jet will net you around 300-325 GBHP with your current heads, intake, etc. Add some roller rockers (1.5:1) and be sure to replace the timing set (Comp #3112 is a good one).
Jim |
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ledhed76
White Buffalo
USA
42 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2010 : 1:41:29 PM
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| so from what i am reading here the only real way to make any more power is to work on the valvetrain or go straight at the compression ratio (which i am not looking to do right now)...sounds like from what you guys say, the components that come stock on these mid 70's cars aren't all that bad....i am gonna definitely order the book and do some research... |
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Phil
Great White Buffalo
3177 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2010 : 1:52:00 PM
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You have all the important stuff already: PONTIAC power, cubes, 4 speed and 3.23 l/s.
I had a 76 Formula many years ago and the two biggest improvements I made were a cam and rear end gears (2.41 to 3.42). You already have the gears so the next step is obvious. The factory cams those years were a joke. There is alot of power in that engine just waiting to be let out.
You will be amazed at how much better that car runs with the cam Jim and others recommended. For reference, my Formula with a 400/6x-8 (same heads) and an old cam from the stone age runs mid 13's.
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Bowties are for Peewee Herman |
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mike mcarthur
Pony that Jumps
USA
1299 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2010 : 3:57:39 PM
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| What Jim said. You will be amazed at the difference. |
It's the stuff you learn after you know it all that's important |
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Taman
Cochise
USA
583 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2010 : 8:30:26 PM
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| Don't forget to budget a little money for some suspension. Poly bushings in the rear leafs, set of traction bars, ans a good set of shocks. If not, all that new found power goes up in smoke. |
Everything Under The Sun Is Intune |
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ledhed76
White Buffalo
USA
42 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2010 : 12:32:03 PM
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| ordered the book last night....if you take the radiator out, how hard is it to get the camshaft out?? |
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Mr. P-Body
Running Bear
USA
1506 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2010 : 12:40:30 PM
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It's not TOO bad.
Intake, valve covers, pushrods/rockers, balancer (usually a "slip fit"), timing cover (no need to remove the water pump from the cover), timing set, cam retainer plate, lifters (keep them "in order" if you ever plan to use the cam again) and there you are!
If an A/C car, the condenser will need to be loosened and "swung aside".
Jim |
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Bill Boyle
Horse Feathers (Charter Member)
USA
1592 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2010 : 2:26:36 PM
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ledhed76 (Rich)--thanks for the book order. Jim Hand's book is on it's way to you.
Bill Boyle |
"Dedicated to keeping the classic Pontiac engine alive."
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Cobrabill
Talking Dog
Aruba
1369 Posts |
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John
Tribal Scout
USA
38 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2010 : 10:29:27 PM
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| I'm not trying to give any advice just telling you the combo in my wife's 81 TA. It's a 406 w/800 Edelbrock carb,Torker 2 intake,6X-4 heads w/Comp roller tip rockers,Summit 2802 cam and Hedman shorty headers that fit very well.The rear gears are the stock for that year TA ( 3.08 ? ).The car runs 8.90's in the 1/8 @81 mph on drag radials and driven to and from the track. By the way I live just west of Charlotte and know several Pontiac people in the area you could talk to, so if your interested let me know. John 704-860-9364 |
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ledhed76
White Buffalo
USA
42 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2010 : 10:53:38 PM
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| so what is the deal w/ the edelbrock intakes and these heads w/ exhaust crossovers....can i buy a non-egr intake and take all that stuff off the engine.....what will i have to do to the heads??....i assume there is a port that will need to be closed up and how would i do this....or can i not buy a non-egr intake and put on the 6x-8 heads... |
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phil400
Sitting Bull
141 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2010 : 11:28:14 PM
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| Order intakes gaskets intended to run without EGR.they will cover the port that needs to be covered.you don't have to do anything to the heads |
78T/A4-SPEED |
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Mr. P-Body
Running Bear
USA
1506 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2010 : 08:27:24 AM
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Using a '72 factory intake will be the only way you can eliminate EGR AND use a factory intake without a bunch of sealing issues at the crossover. It must be re-iterated, the EGR intake is NOT a liability regarding flow. It's a bit heavier, but that's about the only REAL drawback.
Edelbrock Performer or Torker II would also "solve" the crossover sealing issue.
Jim |
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ledhed76
White Buffalo
USA
42 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2010 : 12:59:03 PM
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| ok cool...that is what i was wondering...i never could find a good pic of the non-egr intake online....i was wondering if you installed it whether it would cover the crossover holes....it would really help to clean it up under the hood to get all the egr stuff out of there... |
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bnorris_74
Cochise
USA
511 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2010 : 5:22:52 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ledhed76
ok cool...that is what i was wondering...i never could find a good pic of the non-egr intake online....i was wondering if you installed it whether it would cover the crossover holes....it would really help to clean it up under the hood to get all the egr stuff out of there...
Here's a link to my 1972 non EGR intake if you want to see one.
http://psp.aquacomp.net/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3641
Here's a link describing the use of the 1971 and earlier intake on the later model heads:
http://www.dapa.org/jhpages/jhand9.htm |
Edited by - bnorris_74 on 26 Mar 2010 5:31:28 PM |
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ledhed76
White Buffalo
USA
42 Posts |
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ledhed76
White Buffalo
USA
42 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2010 : 4:18:33 PM
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| will the crosswind work w/ my cylinder heads??....i must be confused on this whole egr and exhaust crossover port thing...somebody please explain to me what the center ports on both sides of the Performer non-egr intakes are for and why there are no center runners on the tomahawk intakes...and are they necessary on my heads...thanks |
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bnorris_74
Cochise
USA
511 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2010 : 7:14:19 PM
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The center ports on the non-EGR heads and intake are to heat the area around the carb and to supply heat to a factory style choke mechanism.
When blocking off the center ports, you should go to an electric choke or wire the choke open.
The Tomahawks block off the center head ports with the intake mounting flange. A lot of people block off the heat crossover on the standard intakes to keep the fuel/air mix cooler.
Bill Boyle (the owner of this site) sells the Tomahawk manifolds:
http://www.pontiacstreetperformance.com/psp/PSPstore2.html
It's a single plane intake though and most people find the dual plane stock intake more desirable for stock to moderate performance engines. |
Edited by - bnorris_74 on 28 Mar 2010 7:18:08 PM |
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ledhed76
White Buffalo
USA
42 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2010 : 7:39:02 PM
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| ok that makes sense....so if i am gonna run a carb without the hot air choke, then all those ports do is heat my air/fuel mixture which is no good....the Crosswind intake is a single plane with a divider and not a true single plane....so it will kill my bottom end??....it looks more like a Performer and not a Performer RPM....i thought with the divider and my car being a 4-speed it may not hurt it much... |
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Bill Boyle
Horse Feathers (Charter Member)
USA
1592 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2010 : 8:02:05 PM
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| Crosswind is a dual plane; Tomahawk a single plane intake. |
"Dedicated to keeping the classic Pontiac engine alive."
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ledhed76
White Buffalo
USA
42 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2010 : 8:38:36 PM
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| now i am confused....on Summit it says Crosswind is a single plane w/ divider but that is the cheap chinese version of the PPR intake.....has anybody used the Crosswind intake and have any opinions on it.....i searched the boards and didnt find much info on it....it does say that it is for 1500-6500 rpm....if i am planning on doing the cam swap like was discussed before then what should i expect from an intake?? |
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rad400
Cochise
USA
633 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2010 : 09:04:07 AM
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| The Crosswind is a knock off of the RPM intake. I still would go for the 72 iron intake. |
Conrad
79 Trans Am 400 auto Crower 60210 Torker II Holley 750 vac sec. #12 heads,3500 stall. |
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Mr. P-Body
Running Bear
USA
1506 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2010 : 09:12:25 AM
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ledhed,
LOTS of "misinformation" surrounding the Chinese "knock-off" intakes. First, the "Crosswind" IS "Professional Products" intake sold by PPR, not a copy of it. PPR imports a lot of Chinese products. They claim it to be a copy of the Edelbrock Performer "RPM". The term "Crosswind" is a spin on "Air Gap", the marketing name of several Edelbrock intakes, not including Pontiac (ALL Pontiac intakes are "air gapped"). The only information regarding the performance potential of these intakes comes from those selling them.
Simply "blocking" the heat crossover helps a little by keeping the carb/fuel-air charge a bit cooler. Real power gains come from "filling" the crossover in the heads, by isolationg the exhaust ports from each other. If you have good 4-tube headers, this can be a good modification.
We (CVMS) feel the dual plane intake is good on the smaller engines (under 440 CID) but an open plenum like Torker II is better for the larger engines (over 440 CID).
Jim |
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ledhed76
White Buffalo
USA
42 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2010 : 12:32:08 PM
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| ok...that makes sense now....thanks.... |
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Suggestions on "waking up" a 76 Formula
