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torqueymonster
Cochise
USA
288 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Feb 2010 : 1:29:53 PM
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Hi guys... Bill, this new indexing is great!! Kudos, my good man!
The lowdown: I'm looking to put a manual OD trans in my 77 TA, 462, 6X heads. Aside from the heads, headers and an Xtreme Energy Cam, no real mods. I looked at 200-4r's, but really want to be able to row the gears, and want to enjoy the car on the highway. I am guessing that the rear end gears are 3.73, based on 2200 RPMS @ 50 MPH with 28.5 inch Firestones... I feel like the car is winding too high.
I contacted Tremec and asked about 6 Speed transmissions, only to be told that it would be a "waste" to go with anything more than 5 speeds. If my goal is to be able to cruise at high speeds (80ish on the highway), doesn't more overdrive make sense?? Thanks for any and all responses.
TM (Jonathan) |
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Phil
Great White Buffalo
3181 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2010 : 4:09:26 PM
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I agree that more than 5 gears is wasted on a torquey Pontiac engine. That being said, 6 can still be more fun!
Check out the new Richmond Super Street 5 speed. Handles 600 lb. ft. of torque and fifth is an OD gear. Perfect for your 3.73 gears and the installation is more like a ST-10 from 77 vs. the newer Tremecs, etc. |
Bowties are for Peewee Herman |
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torqueymonster
Cochise
USA
288 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2010 : 4:21:00 PM
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| ok, Phil... why? because the overdrive top-end gear ends up being the same so I don't need the extra "stepping stone" between 4th and overdrive? Also, Looking @ the Richmond, the final overdrive doesn't seem to be as low numerically as the Tremec... |
Edited by - torqueymonster on 26 Feb 2010 4:40:28 PM |
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Taman
Cochise
USA
583 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2010 : 4:56:52 PM
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| Go for the 6 speed. The 6 speed should give you 2200 rpm at 80. You will be happy with the extra gear. |
Everything Under The Sun Is Intune |
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Phil
Great White Buffalo
3181 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2010 : 5:03:36 PM
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| Pontiacs have the torque to make all those extra gears in between a moot point. |
Bowties are for Peewee Herman |
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Kiwi Mal
Cochise
New Zealand
551 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2010 : 6:42:12 PM
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You have the choice to two different overdrive ratio's with the tremac. When I had the TR3550 behind the 400 with E heads and rpm cam cruising at 60mph ( legal limit here ) it was only doing 1500 rpm and was just on the edge of the cam.
Since the engine is now a 462 with a TKO600 behind it I went for the road race overdrive gear ratio which is not as high. I just wanted to be doing a few more rev's at the speed limit to make it more responsive and comfortable to drive. |
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Taman
Cochise
USA
583 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2010 : 7:47:57 PM
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| Legal limit. That cracks me up. Here in Chicago on Interstate 90 between Chicago and Rockford the speed limit is 55. If you do 55, even in the right lane, you get run over. The left lane is 80 plus. Right lane is at least 65. A cop will have someone pulled over, people still don't slow down. |
Everything Under The Sun Is Intune |
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torqueymonster
Cochise
USA
288 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2010 : 11:48:33 AM
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Ok Phil and Kiwi--
But I'd assume having to "downshift to pass" would be Standard Operating Procedure! I'd be fine with a 4 speed auto if the top gear was a .6 or even a .50, but...
A 6 speed manual, drop it to 3rd or 4th and pound it... I find myself agreeing with TAman. |
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Kiwi Mal
Cochise
New Zealand
551 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2010 : 12:50:55 AM
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quote:
But I'd assume having to "downshift to pass" would be Standard Operating Procedure!
Johnathan.
I see you have 373's in the rear. I have 308's which I will not change unless I go drag racing regularly. With the 462 I can drive the car at 40mph and pull away in 5th gear. With the 373's I would go for the higher 5th gear option to cut down the rev's. I would have thought with 373's with that engine you would only need to go from 5th to 4th to overtake on the open road without spinning the hoops.
But if you want a six speed, you want a six speed.
Is there a difference between the 5 speed first gear ratio and the 6 speeds  |
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Seth
White Buffalo
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2010 : 3:08:04 PM
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| I know you said manual, but you also mentioned the 200r4. How about the 7004R transmission? Fairly simple swap and maybe the least expensive. In my research the only thing you need to remember is that OD is a CRUISING gear only. Shifting from 3-4 and 4-3 continually while being in the engine's powerband will severely shorten its life. Sticking with 1-3 in town and CRUISING on the highway in 4th should give you long life. I am looking forward to doing this swap soon. 70 Lemans, 406, 4.11's in the rear... |
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Taman
Cochise
USA
583 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2010 : 3:54:48 PM
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| My tranny guy does 700R4's for $1400 with converter. Handles 550 hp. He keeps trying to get me to switch to one from my T-350. Only need a adapter to bolt up to a Pontiac engine. First gear is real low. |
Everything Under The Sun Is Intune |
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Phil
Great White Buffalo
3181 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2010 : 4:25:30 PM
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| 200-4R is a bolt in and has a nicer gear spread. Also has full throttle shifts to OD and stronger input shaft than 700. If going from a shortail 350 even the driveshaft goes right back in! |
Bowties are for Peewee Herman |
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Seth
White Buffalo
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2010 : 11:09:06 AM
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| I would question the strength of the 200r4 standing up to the abuse. I have seen articles stating they "live" behind the Pontiac engines, however a rating of 200 ft lbs it isn't much. The 700r4 has a rating of 700 ft lbs. The transmission guys I have talked to all tout the 700r4 being able to handle much more abuse in first through third gears. NONE of them recommend WOT (high RMP) shifts into OD for either tranny. The 700r4 will allow for reuse of the driveshaft if converting from a short tail 350 just like the 200r4 does. The low first gear in the 700r4 is something to keep in mind. To each their own... |
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Phil
Great White Buffalo
3181 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2010 : 10:12:47 PM
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Seth, I don't know where you got your info. The number has nothing to do with how much torque they handle. Believe me, even 700 lovers won't say a stock 700 handles 700 ft. lbs of torque!
Buick GN's came with 200-4R's and had at least double that number (200) off the showroom floor. Some estimates approach 500 ft. lbs. once you realize they are basically very similiar in weight, rear gear ratio etc. as a 70 GSX and ran about the same in the quarter.
The 200-4R and 700-R4 are both pretty sturdy when properly prepped. Remember, besides the GN, the 200-4R came in the 89 Turbo T/A as well as large, heavy station wagons and sedans!
Currently they are able to reliably handle up to around 800 hp/600+ ft. lbs. with the newer full billet setups (10's). Prices are alot better these days as well.
Not to take anything away from the 700 either, as it is also a good unit. There are different camps for each trans. I favor the 200-4R but there are plus's and minus's in each. BTW, the driveshaft cannot be reused when going from a 350 shortail to a 700 UNLESS you have it shortened and rebalanced. The 200-4R is the same length as a short turbo 350 vs. the 700 which is a bit longer. Both use the 350 style yoke however. Beware of local tranny shops as most are notorious for giving out wrong info on anything other than an obsolete 3 speed auto.
The 200-4R will perform a full throttle automatic upshift to 4th gear whereas a 700 requires a bit of "lifting" on the throttle. Many a 700 has fallen victim to the 200-4R's ability to "walk away" on the high end.
The 3.06 first gear in the 700 is not a selling feature. It really is nothing worth talking about either way. Its purpose was simply to get sluggish Small Block Chevies off the line. Some complain about the drop from first to second being too drastic, others have no problem at all with it. Once again, internet fodder.
I have installed many 200-4R's in older musclecars and daily drivers dating back to the late 80's, so I'm not parroting some internet info I "heard". |
Bowties are for Peewee Herman |
Edited by - Phil on 04 Mar 2010 11:26:28 PM |
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PontiacJohn
Tribal Scout
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2010 : 11:58:33 PM
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Seth,
I have done many of these OD swaps. Back in the mid 1990's I thought the same way that you did. I thought that the 700 was a better transmission. Phil has absolutely gave you all the correct information. He is right about the driveshaft not being the same for the 700. He's also right about the gear ratio being too drastic between first and second gear especially if you wind it out at high RPM. That 3.06 gear was when those lousy Mustangs were getting press that they were so fast but in reality, they had a low first gear. GM matched that 3.06 jump to help with Caprices and such. If you do make a mistake of going with the 700, get a later model (I think after 1987) to be sure to get one with the better front pump and sprauge. As Phil stated, where did you get your information? Where ever it was from, don't go back there! After minnimal work to the 200, it IS a stronger transmission. It IS the same length as a short tail TH350 or powerglide. Also remember that when you swap it, you'll need to make sure that you hook up the detent cable. Many guys think that it is a kick-down cable and leave it unhooked. You NEED to have it hooked-up and adjusted properly. It regulates shift points! You can burn-up your trans without it connected properly. You'll also need the lock-up touque converter controller. They're about $125.00/ If you are doing this on 'the cheap', you can 'rig' a toggle switch to enguage overdrive. It feels great on the highway but if you come off that ramp and forget that the converter is locked-up, it's quite the experience! Anyway, the 200 is really the undisputed way to go if going with the automatic!!! |
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jdkopveiler
Tribal Scout
7 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2010 : 11:36:49 PM
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| I am planning on pulling 2004r out of an '82 buick that runs and drives (just under 100K miles) to put in my '78 TA. I basically have a stock 400 (headers, 6x heads shaved .030, .214/.224-.442/.465 cam). I am hoping to drop it in and drive it for a year or two before having to completely go through it. Is there any modifications or upgrades that definately need to be done before puttting it in and trying it out? I am planning on going with a stall in the range of 2200-2600rpm and 3.73 gears. keep in mind I'm working on a budget...for right now anyways. |
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Phil
Great White Buffalo
3181 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2010 : 11:49:06 AM
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If you are tight for money, don't beat on it until you can do the proper upgrades. Just use it for a driver in the meantime and take the opportunity to work out any bugs in the install.
I'd use the stock converter for now until you are ready to upgrade the whole unit. But check the condition of the stator splines before reinstalling. Any wear at all and I would swap out the stator for the hardened unit (inexpensive) but you have to remove the pump to do it.
Your rolling the dice but I've seen them work if they were healthy to start with. Alot depends on the true condition, the quality of the install particularly the TV cable geometry, and lastly the care and maintenance you lavish on the box. |
Bowties are for Peewee Herman |
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cortcomp
Sitting Bull
130 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2010 : 11:39:03 AM
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Use an NP440..love mine! Side loader four speed like a muncie:
http://www.hemmings.com/mus/stories/2005/03/01/hmn_feature17.html
they used them in 81-86 chevy trucks. You can fab your own shift rods and use a competition plus shifter. Little work but i got mine to fit in snug as a bug. Almost the same ratios as a 700R4 |
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overdrive transmission choice...
