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Phil
Great White Buffalo
3181 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Mar 2010 : 1:45:54 PM
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| Sounds just like a CD pack on a 2 cycle Lawn Boy mower. There is no rhyme or reason as to when they fail. |
Bowties are for Peewee Herman |
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mike mcarthur
Pony that Jumps
USA
1303 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2010 : 4:37:57 PM
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| I know what happened. You touched it! :) |
It's the stuff you learn after you know it all that's important |
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Admin
Ye Olde Webmaster
306 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2010 : 3:39:50 PM
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It's alive! It's alive! Hahaha, it's alive! (play sound byte)
http://www.pontiacstreetperformance.com/sounds/alive.wav
It was the original 31 year old HEI ignition coil that was causing the no-start problem. Today, my son and I rolled out the car from the garage, gave it two quick shots of starting fluid, and after a quick turn of the crank, it sputtered. A few more turns and it came alive.
Now it's a matter of setting the timing and carb--to synchronize them to get the best idle.
Tomorrow's another day.  
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"Dedicated to keeping the classic Pontiac engine alive." |
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Kiwi Mal
Cochise
New Zealand
551 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2010 : 3:53:43 PM
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Good on ya Bill. It didn't take that long to do the head swap did it . Now we all wait for the verdict on the performance improvment |
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phil400
Sitting Bull
142 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2010 : 4:13:40 PM
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| Alright!you must be pretty excited to go for a ride eh.i know i would be after waiting 3 years.good for you man! |
78T/A4-SPEED |
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rad400
Cochise
USA
633 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2010 : 5:26:00 PM
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| Good job Bill glad you got it fired up. |
Conrad
79 Trans Am 400 auto Crower 60210 Torker II Holley 750 vac sec. #12 heads,3500 stall. |
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Admin
Ye Olde Webmaster
306 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2010 : 8:36:03 PM
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Thanks guys. It was pretty exciting.
The X crossover and transverse muffler will aide exhaust flow for sure. However, the exhaust isn't quiet. The Comp 276AH cam has quite a pulse. Now I have to find the best idle and timing for the engine. The lower compression 6x-4 heads (8.5 to 1) are now 62 ported heads (9.5 to 1). The engine start is more lively.
With the original L78-W72 camshaft, the engine idled nicely at 775 rpm. With the subsequent Crane Blazer cam it idled at the same rpm as did the Comp 270H. However, the new grind is in a different animal. I expect to have to kick up the idle to somewhere around 850-875. (Stick car).
I'll take a short clip of it idling tomorrow and post it.
BTW, I saw Bob Kaplan today. He was down from MA with his wife. They were wrapping up a short Caribbean vacation and had some time to look around Ft Lauderdale. Bob came over to my place and left 40 minutes too early and missed the start up. The 276AH cam I installed was purchased from Bob. He bough it to install in his engine and then changed his mind.
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"Dedicated to keeping the classic Pontiac engine alive." |
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Vid
Cochise
USA
581 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2010 : 8:47:17 PM
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Congrats on the start up! I'm sure you'll have it running like a top in no time.
To me, it is always a big sigh of relief to hear it run, and not "Grind, Clank, Snap". You've cleared a major hurdle. |
""I'll get around to that NEXT weekend..."
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Admin
Ye Olde Webmaster
306 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2010 : 07:38:58 AM
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| This morning, I pulled a spark plug to look at combustion. Clearly, the Q-jet primaries are abundantly rich (too rich). My carb was tweaked 27 years ago by a so-called carb specialist and its been rich ever since. It may need to go off to Cliff Ruggles for expert analysis. |
"Dedicated to keeping the classic Pontiac engine alive." |
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Christ
Crazy Horse
USA
1295 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2010 : 09:24:59 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Admin
This morning, I pulled a spark plug to look at combustion. Clearly, the Q-jet primaries are abundantly rich (too rich). My carb was tweaked 27 years ago by a so-called carb specialist and its been rich ever since. It may need to go off to Cliff Ruggles for expert analysis.
Congrats Bill good to hear it running. Bet it gave you that pontiac grin! |
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mike mcarthur
Pony that Jumps
USA
1303 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2010 : 6:07:56 PM
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| Congrats Bill, it's been a long time coming. |
It's the stuff you learn after you know it all that's important |
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Bob Kaplan
Cochise
USA
204 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2010 : 7:38:58 PM
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Bill,
I wish I heard that beast fire. That cam must have some real attitude by the sound of your voice when you called back. Good to see you again and I wish I could have stayed longer. |
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rkellerjr
Cochise
USA
431 Posts |
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Phil
Great White Buffalo
3181 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2010 : 2:56:42 PM
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| ELIZABETH! IT'S THE BIG ONE! |
Bowties are for Peewee Herman |
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Vid
Cochise
USA
581 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2010 : 5:01:04 PM
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| LOL Phil, I thought her name was Esther but you are probably right... |
""I'll get around to that NEXT weekend..."
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phil400
Sitting Bull
142 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2010 : 10:58:50 PM
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Bill "isn't quiet"hows that a bad thingLOL
Any chance of a sound clip?sorry know your busy just can't wait to hear it idle |
78T/A4-SPEED |
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mike mcarthur
Pony that Jumps
USA
1303 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2010 : 11:14:43 PM
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| It's Elizabeth. |
It's the stuff you learn after you know it all that's important |
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Bill Boyle
Horse Feathers (Charter Member)
USA
1593 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2010 : 09:18:28 AM
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Phil400--Sunday became a "honey do" day so the TA sat asleep in the garage. Once I get some more fresh fuel in the tank and I get the engine to idle (even though not tuned) I'll take a video of it and a sound decibel reading.
Part of my goal was to have a "relatively" quiet engine. The drone at 2500 rpms was deafening for me and my wife when we drove across the US from CA to FL in the car. My audio system is classic 1979 and was unable to overcome the dual exhaust system I had on the car at that time. That exhaust system had turbo mufflers situated in the cavity under the front seat location of the TA. Now the single transverse muffler resides behind the axle. |
"Dedicated to keeping the classic Pontiac engine alive."
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Christ
Crazy Horse
USA
1295 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2010 : 12:04:09 AM
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Bill,
were the pictures? |
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Vid
Cochise
USA
581 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2010 : 01:29:32 AM
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Elizabeth, of course. Esther was the crabby sister in law, Lamont's aunt, that was always trading insults with Fred.
Aunt Esther: Who you calling ugly, sucker?
Fred Sanford: I'm calling you ugly, I could push your face in some dough and make gorilla cookies. |
""I'll get around to that NEXT weekend..."
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Bill Boyle
Horse Feathers (Charter Member)
USA
1593 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2010 : 3:46:55 PM
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Update: Saturday March 13, 2010
Put more fresh gas in the tank and fired the engine up. Timing is set at 14 degrees BTDC. The idle is erratic and needs more adjustment but wait...two things are very wrong:
1. There is a serious exhaust leak at the gasket between the head and the Hedman header at the center exhaust port on the passenger side; and,
2. The secondaries will refuse to open when the engine is revved up.
I'm calling Cliff Ruggles on Monday.
Listen to the engine and the exhaust leak.
http://pontiacstreetperformance.com/videos/BoyleTA.html |
"Dedicated to keeping the classic Pontiac engine alive."
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Edited by - Bill Boyle on 13 Mar 2010 4:50:26 PM |
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phil400
Sitting Bull
142 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2010 : 4:33:44 PM
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maybe the choke pull off,my buddy had the same problem with his iroc when we disconnect the vacum line and plug it, the secondaries would open--reconnect and they would not.
could be the header flange that's not straight?or i've heard where the primaries are welded to the flange is not flush and prevents the gasket from sealing properly.
I know headers are the best for performance but what a pain in the a$$, that's why i took mine off and went with repro ram air manifolds. |
78T/A4-SPEED |
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Bill Boyle
Horse Feathers (Charter Member)
USA
1593 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2010 : 7:36:07 PM
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Focusing on the passenger side header right now.
Using a feeler gauge the rear exhaust port is tight--no gaps; the center permits a .024" feeler to be inserted; the front iallows .008" . All the header bolts are tight.
When under the car, I looked to see if the header was touching anything that would cause this gap. I saw nothing.
My guess is the flange is not flat or true which is not permitting the flange to flatten the Fel-Pro exhaust gasket tightly against the head. I've never experienced this problem before.
As these were purchased 5 years ago I have no remedy from the seller or from Hedman.
Does anyone know of a thicker exhaust gasket that might work? I'm open to suggestions. |
"Dedicated to keeping the classic Pontiac engine alive."
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Christ
Crazy Horse
USA
1295 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2010 : 8:21:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Boyle
Focusing on the passenger side header right now.
Using a feeler gauge the rear exhaust port is tight--no gaps; the center permits a .024" feeler to be inserted; the front iallows .008" . All the header bolts are tight.
When under the car, I looked to see if the header was touching anything that would cause this gap. I saw nothing.
My guess is the flange is not flat or true which is not permitting the flange to flatten the Fel-Pro exhaust gasket tightly against the head. I've never experienced this problem before.
As these were purchased 5 years ago I have no remedy from the seller or from Hedman.
Does anyone know of a thicker exhaust gasket that might work? I'm open to suggestions.
Big old belt sander. |
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Vid
Cochise
USA
581 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2010 : 8:36:28 PM
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Mr. Gasket makes "Ultra Seal" header gaskets that far exceeds the ROTM header gasket. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MRG-5921/
If that doesn't do it, Billy Mays says (said) MIGHTY PUTTY seals EVERYTHING! You can even copy the funny papers with the leftover, oh wait that is Silly Putty 
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""I'll get around to that NEXT weekend..."
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Armadillo
Sitting Bull
USA
120 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2010 : 9:36:03 PM
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Bill,
Sounds great. Are you sure the bolts didn't back out? Hearing that thing runs sounds awesome.
Tom |
Will I ever be done? |
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Kiwi Mal
Cochise
New Zealand
551 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2010 : 9:41:30 PM
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| Could you cut the flange into three seperate sections. The pipes will flex enough to allow the small sections to seal. Maybe not your first choice to try. |
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dgray
Cochise
437 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2010 : 10:04:05 PM
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| Maybe you can loosen the ends and tighten the center and then retighten the ends. I used some copper gaskets from Summit Summit Racing SUM-111446 - Summit Racing Copper Exhaust Gasket They worked really good but I had to snug them up several times. After about 4 times they stayed tight and leakproof. I buttered them up with high temp silicone when I installed them too. |
Edited by - dgray on 13 Mar 2010 10:18:22 PM |
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Bill Boyle
Horse Feathers (Charter Member)
USA
1593 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2010 : 10:58:59 PM
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I usually don't post his late at night, but I was in the garage sorting things out until 10:30. The bolts were removed and the Fel Pro 1424 gasket removed. It's a mess and burned and is no good. I'll post a pict of the old one (used with my old Super Comps for years) and the new one tomorrow that lasted about 25 minutes.
Tomorrow the header will be removed from the car.
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Cutting the flange in segments may be a good idea Mal. With the flange in smaller pieces the 6 bolts may be able to draw the smaller detached flange tighter to the head. That may be the solution along with thicker gaskets. 
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Tom--the new cam has some substance to it. When the header problem is solved I'll move on to the carb.
BTW--just in case you all didn't already know. Headers on a Pontiac are are really *7%4#* nuisance. There I've said it. Now I can go to bed!
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"Dedicated to keeping the classic Pontiac engine alive."
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Edited by - Bill Boyle on 14 Mar 2010 09:00:43 AM |
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dgray
Cochise
437 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2010 : 08:43:58 AM
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| All headers are a PITA. (except for those factory ones on my brother-in-laws 2008 ZO6 Vette) |
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Bill Boyle
Horse Feathers (Charter Member)
USA
1593 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2010 : 08:58:27 AM
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PITA--absolutely. It's just a matter of degree.
Sunday March 14, 2010
With the early morning light I could better see why the header would not close the gap and seal correctly. It is the uneven weld that secures the flange to the individual tubes. It's almost flat at one end and higher at the other on all welds. Removing the header from the car is next. Then I'll grind away some of the weld to make it uniform. Since it will be out of the car, I will cut the flange so there's some flexing when the bolts are tightened. A new gasket for that side is in order now.
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"Dedicated to keeping the classic Pontiac engine alive."
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Edited by - Bill Boyle on 14 Mar 2010 08:59:07 AM |
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Christ
Crazy Horse
USA
1295 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2010 : 11:49:40 AM
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Bill,
No need to cut the flange. Grind down the high spot and them level them out with a file. |
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pete w
Cochise
USA
442 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2010 : 12:25:57 PM
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| will grinding cause you to lose the weld. after running headers in my youth i have avoided them so far now that i am older.i have been considering cast iron headers . |
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mike mcarthur
Pony that Jumps
USA
1303 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2010 : 2:50:30 PM
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| Here is my leaky header fix. Step one; Remove headers. Step two; Throw them in the trash. Step three; Install RA Manifolds and never worry again. Just my opinion, I hate headers. Seriously Bill, I hope you are able to solve the issue. The engine looks and sounds great. |
It's the stuff you learn after you know it all that's important |
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phil400
Sitting Bull
142 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2010 : 3:32:27 PM
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Bill,that cam sounds nastysweet....
were able to keep the reverse lock in place with those headers? |
78T/A4-SPEED |
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Vid
Cochise
USA
581 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2010 : 3:33:04 PM
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I never could figure out why most Pontiac header manufacturers insist on curving the #5 and #6 header tubes directly from the center flange to 1/2" right over the top of header bolt, smack dab in the way. That is a big part of why header installs are a PITA.
Bill, good luck with the headers, I hope you get it resolved quickly. |
""I'll get around to that NEXT weekend..."
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Vid
Cochise
USA
581 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2010 : 3:37:46 PM
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PS let me know what was up with your Q-Jet secondaries when you figure that one out.
Phil400, the choke pull off? |
""I'll get around to that NEXT weekend..."
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dgray
Cochise
437 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2010 : 6:35:24 PM
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| Hydaulic open end angle wrenches are the only way to get them tight. more PITA. |
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Bill Boyle
Horse Feathers (Charter Member)
USA
1593 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2010 : 6:49:15 PM
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Okay guys, here's a little cinematic treat. My son captured this footage this morning and made a short video. Now you'll see the header. Click on the link, settle back with some popcorn and lament.
www.pontiacstreetperformance.com/videos/BoyleTA_Headers.html |
"Dedicated to keeping the classic Pontiac engine alive."
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phil400
Sitting Bull
142 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2010 : 8:56:43 PM
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Vid,my friends car,the air flaps weren't opening when he would give gas,but as soon as he diconnected the choke pull off font its vacum source they would open.it is a computer carb.
just a thought |
78T/A4-SPEED |
Edited by - phil400 on 14 Mar 2010 8:57:47 PM |
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Christ
Crazy Horse
USA
1295 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2010 : 9:41:38 PM
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Bill,
That header is not bad at all. I seen a lot worse. Yous a nice meatl file and smooth it out. |
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PontiacMatt
Cochise
USA
659 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2010 : 10:49:57 PM
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Nice little movie! might have to do those more often Bill, maybe your own series?
-Matt |
*72' Pontiac Lemans* - Work in Progress |
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Kiwi Mal
Cochise
New Zealand
551 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2010 : 02:08:23 AM
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Bill.
You probably have allready done this, but it would be interesting if you have a long straight edge, and place it against the fitting surface of the header and see how even they are between each port. Being out in the open you will be able to see exactly where it is out.
Mal |
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Bill Boyle
Horse Feathers (Charter Member)
USA
1593 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2010 : 08:16:37 AM
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Mal. before I do anything to that header, I'll do just that.
I also plan to mock up the header on a head mounted to a table to see how the changes work. This isn't like taking a piece of wood trim to the miter saw several times to get the right cut. Installing and removing headers is a lot of work (as we all know) and needs to work before re-installation.
Video and photos are very helpful. My son Brian has been taking videos since he was 5 and enjoys "film editing." He can take a series of different shots and rearrange them to tell a story. He can include music to build drama in the shot as well. Maybe I can coax him to do that "for fun" in a future video. |
"Dedicated to keeping the classic Pontiac engine alive."
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mike mcarthur
Pony that Jumps
USA
1303 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2010 : 08:34:38 AM
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| Mocking it up is a great idea Bill. If I ever use headers I'll be sure to do that before they go on the car. |
It's the stuff you learn after you know it all that's important |
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Phil
Great White Buffalo
3181 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2010 : 09:17:26 AM
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| Bill, are those headers coated? |
Bowties are for Peewee Herman |
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Bill Boyle
Horse Feathers (Charter Member)
USA
1593 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2010 : 12:09:41 PM
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Yes, ceramic coated.
Today's effort did nothing to improve fit. I evened out the welds on the center ports and the rear port (8 E). The weld is not even with the flange. I also cut the flange that disconnected the front port (2 E) from the full flange. Bolting it up to 6x heads that were mounted to a table top revealed the same condition using the old gasket.
When the flange is placed flush to the head, tightening the center bolt draws the flange away at the top (where the leak is). I may need to remove more of the weld and perhaps add some weld to the top. I also need to try a new gasket, preferably a thick one and try the mock up again. 
Video was taken this morning showing the before and after work I did that didn't work.
Decided to edit and add more comment to this post.
Thought about the surface of the head and the surface of the flange. if welds are uneven tightening the bolts can only crush the gasket so much. Since the flange is flat and only the welds protrude, filing off the welds almost to where they are flat and parallel to the flange should permit the bolts to draw the flange tightly against the gasket and the head.
Based on this, I'm going to file off more of the welds. Tomorrow I'll have a new Fel Pro 1424 to try. |
"Dedicated to keeping the classic Pontiac engine alive."
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Edited by - Bill Boyle on 15 Mar 2010 2:16:48 PM |
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sixt8bird
Chief Many Horses
USA
426 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2010 : 12:22:24 PM
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That header flange looks very thin but may just be the video. I coat both sides of the gasket with a thin layer of ultra copper and let dry . Then before installing I put another thin layer on and install wet. Never had an exhaust leak with many miles put on.
If you notice the black around the flange/header tubes, I ground all of that off and then rewelded the tube so that the flow was uninterupted coming out of the exhaust port. Everyone spends so much time smoothing out the ports in the head but then skips the header?
Glad you have it running!!! |
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torqueymonster
Cochise
USA
288 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2010 : 09:40:27 AM
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BILL!!! No to the Fel-Pro... If you look back at my gasket woes, you'll see that the answer to your problem is REMFLEX gaskets!! they are thick, heatproof, and compress to where you need them. Best buy I ever made! EVERYTHING they promise on their site is true!! DO NOT waste your time on the Fel-Pros!! http://www.remflex.com/
Call me at work if you need any more glowing reviews of the product... 207-892-2864.
Jonathan |
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Bill Boyle
Horse Feathers (Charter Member)
USA
1593 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2010 : 10:05:43 AM
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Jonathan--after we spoke, I placed my order with REMFLEX. Thanks for the help.
Bill |
"Dedicated to keeping the classic Pontiac engine alive."
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Edited by - Bill Boyle on 16 Mar 2010 10:06:37 AM |
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Exhausting Update: The last act (sort of)
