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Bill Boyle
Horse Feathers (Charter Member)
USA
1593 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Feb 2010 : 8:28:24 PM
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Okay, this project is like a bad cold, it won't go away and just lingers on and on. No not really, like a cold, more like watching grass grow...3 years is a long time to complete a basic head swap. But there was more....
A brief recap is in order for those new to the board or who have a weak memory.
In 2000 I acquired a pair of virgin 62 heads that came off a 428. The chambers measured 75 cc. I was interested in swapping out my 6x-4 heads with these 62s but the chamber size was too small to run on pump gas. I consulted Jim Hand about the matter and we discussed enlarging the chambers ever so slightly to increase size to 79-80cc. With a plan in mind, I consulted Jim Lehart at CVMS. As a result, the heads were boxed and sent to him from CA in 2003. Jim performed his magic and returned them to me in late 2003. The heads were examined thoroughly and painted. Once everything was to my liking, the heads sat ready for installation. Four (4) years later, I pulled the TA into the garage and started the head swap. The problem was that the head swap turned into a major clean up of the engine bay and related components.
During the 4 years, I accumulated parts. New ceramic coated headers, intake, a bunch of stuff.
My TA has always been garaged except for a period of time in Florida. While out in the elements, under cover, the humidity ruined the appearance of the engine bay. It was pristine when I drove it from CA. Sitting out many things were ruined and needed attention. More on that another day.
So, approximately 3 years have elapsed since I started that "head swap." The TA has been on jack stands for that entire period. It is now getting close to being lowered to the ground and the engine "broken in" with 62 heads, all new valve train components and 2.5" Pypes SS X exhaust.
Tonight, yes tonight, the hood springs were installed along with the hood. Coolant and the battery will go in tomorrow. Start-up could be any day now. 
Lots more to do on the car though. Suspension work (front and rear), subframe connectors, along with replacing interior plastic and upholstery fixes are also needed. When everything is sound, the car will finally get new paint. I'm hopeful all this will happen in a relatively short time. 
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"Dedicated to keeping the classic Pontiac engine alive."
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Edited by - Bill Boyle on 20 Feb 2010 4:03:02 PM |
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Phil
Great White Buffalo
3181 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2010 : 9:17:32 PM
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| Wow! It may rise again after all! Hey, if PITP actually happens, any chance of it making an appearance?? |
Bowties are for Peewee Herman |
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Bob Kaplan
Cochise
USA
204 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2010 : 10:11:16 PM
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It's a good thing your not working on flat rate. Three years for a head swap!
Bill, I'll be down your way next week. Might swing by to hear the dead come back to life.. |
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Vid
Cochise
USA
581 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2010 : 10:20:03 PM
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| Wow! Quite a story! I can't wait for the subsequent chapters. Good luck and keep us posted! |
""I'll get around to that NEXT weekend..."
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mike mcarthur
Pony that Jumps
USA
1303 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2010 : 06:33:03 AM
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Any day now? Does that depend on where the dial is set on the time machine? Glad to hear you are almost there. :)
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It's the stuff you learn after you know it all that's important |
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Bill Boyle
Horse Feathers (Charter Member)
USA
1593 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2010 : 07:50:53 AM
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Yes, Mike, I'm close to getting it started. Very close.
PITP is on Phil. The event is somewhat different. It's a month earlier (burrrr) and Saturday is a qualifying date for PINKS ALL OUT. That could be quite interesting as an attendance draw for PITP which has been cut to one day--as far as I can see--Sunday. Hmmm. Still not sure if I'm going to attend (I say that every year). Will the snow be gone by April 30th?? Brian Baker will have the Suite again (106) so that will be good. They raised the suite cost this year by a few bucks (probably because of Pinks). As far as driving up with the TA--not gonna happen. It's a 1600 mile round trip for me--too many travel days and is more expensive than flying in and renting a car for a few days. |
"Dedicated to keeping the classic Pontiac engine alive."
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Bill Boyle
Horse Feathers (Charter Member)
USA
1593 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2010 : 09:02:51 AM
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| Brian-- It took almost 16 minutes to install the springs and hood. Luckily, I had help from my son and wife with the hood. After that it was off to see the nightly Olympic coverage. Can't miss that! |
"Dedicated to keeping the classic Pontiac engine alive."
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Brian R
Cochise
USA
862 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2010 : 2:54:17 PM
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Bill - Best of luck to you.
Now, she starts up and you realize all of the seals on the tranny dried up, brake hoses and lines are shot from sitting so long, tires are cracked and dry rotted, weather stripping breaking off at the slightest tough, etc., etc.
I am sorry, just busting your chops. Have a blast, it must be killing you! My Lemans has been down 16 months and I am going nuts.... I don't know how you have held out. |
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Bill Boyle
Horse Feathers (Charter Member)
USA
1593 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2010 : 3:23:00 PM
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Thanks Brian (R).
My TA was in storage from 1985 to 1988 while serving Uncle Sam in Alaska. So, I've been away from it before. However, in Alaska (it was a little bit out of "out of sight, out of mind for me) there were many other things that kept me active. A new baby for one, then of course, the country itself. Fortunately, I subscribed to HPP and it arrived 6 times a year to remind me of what I was missing back home. When that tour was over, I retrieved the car. It wasn't too bad. Clean as a whistle but the BW Super T-10 was leaking and the secondaries on the carb were not operating fully. Everything else was okay.
Today the engine received fresh coolant and the battery (but for the negative cable) was put back into it's proper place.
Now, I'll prepare a final checklist and go through those items before I attempt to start it up. Who knows...it could be this weekend.  |
"Dedicated to keeping the classic Pontiac engine alive."
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Edited by - Bill Boyle on 19 Feb 2010 3:24:44 PM |
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Phil
Great White Buffalo
3181 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2010 : 4:03:30 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Boyle
Brian-- It took almost 16 minutes to install the springs and hood. Luckily, I had help from my son and wife with the hood.
So they installed the hood and you held the beer? |
Bowties are for Peewee Herman |
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Bill Boyle
Horse Feathers (Charter Member)
USA
1593 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2010 : 4:01:46 PM
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Okay, here it is: I couldn't get the engine to start this afternoon.  Nothing at all--not a cough or a sputter, nothing. So, I need to recheck both the HEI and the carb. Something is amiss with one of them. I'll start with the distributor. |
"Dedicated to keeping the classic Pontiac engine alive."
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Phil
Great White Buffalo
3181 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2010 : 5:48:03 PM
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Ahhhh, distributer not 180 deg. out, right Bill???  |
Bowties are for Peewee Herman |
Edited by - Phil on 20 Feb 2010 5:48:32 PM |
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Bob Kaplan
Cochise
USA
204 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2010 : 6:41:02 PM
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| How old is the gas in that bird,3/4 years @ 95 degrees. It's 180 out like Phil said or the fuel is junk. |
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Cobrabill
Talking Dog
Aruba
1372 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2010 : 6:45:53 PM
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| Starting fluid is a great way to confirm fuel issues. |
Green grass & high tides forever |
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Bill Boyle
Horse Feathers (Charter Member)
USA
1593 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2010 : 6:49:27 PM
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Phil --
I'm looking at the distributor right now. I thought that perhaps it was on the compression stroke of #6. When I looked at #1 plug (new) it didn't appear to have fired, nor did it have the fragrance of gas. I did the old finger in the dike bit and repositioned the engine on #1 TDC. When the cap was unclamped I thought for sure it would be aiming at # 6 terminal it wasn't and appears to be at #1 terminal. That was a surprise. I'll need to think about this some more. Too bad I don't have a clear HEI cap--that would help on the visual.
Bob--if you going to he in south Florida (Broward) give me a call. Do you have my phone number?
CB--I thought about getting a can of ether today, for that very reason; but didn't get it. May have to try that tomorrow. This is annoying. It could be gas, but I'm not there yet. Very little gas in the tank before and it was freshened today with some 92. |
"Dedicated to keeping the classic Pontiac engine alive."
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Edited by - Bill Boyle on 20 Feb 2010 6:54:03 PM |
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Christ
Crazy Horse
USA
1295 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2010 : 7:27:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by bnorris_74
I bet the fuel pump hasn't caught a hold on any fuel yet.
Force feed the carb some gas thru the vent with a turkey baster
Bill,
you running the mechanical pump? The diaphram could be dry from the florida heat and sitting so long. Make sure your getting spark. |
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Phil
Great White Buffalo
3181 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2010 : 8:24:36 PM
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| I think the T/A is in total disbelief of its circumstances! |
Bowties are for Peewee Herman |
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dgray
Cochise
437 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2010 : 12:45:07 AM
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| Keep a fire extinguisher handy if you are going to be dumping and spraying into the carb with maybe freaky ignition. |
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Bill Boyle
Horse Feathers (Charter Member)
USA
1593 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2010 : 3:25:45 PM
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Update: 21 Feb 10--This morning I went through the HEI. It was removed and reinstalled. Then this afternoon, efforts were made to start the engine. Result--nothing. I pulled the carb and poured the gas into a small can. Examined the carb and it seemed to be working fine. Reinstalled the carb and added a booster to the battery for start up. Again. nothing. Not a cough or anything. Back to the distributor. I checked to see if current was getting to the distributor from the battery. Yes, measured over 12 v. Then pulled #1 plug wire and spark plug to check spark to the plug. Had my son turn over the engine while I grounded the plug against the car frame. I saw no spark. Back to the drawing board.
What about the gas in the can? Well, I wanted to dispose of it properly and decided to torch it. I have an old cast iron kettle used to add humidity when using a fireplace insert or pot belly stove. This would be my furnace. So I poured the ounce or more of gas into the kettle and lighted it with a wood match. It burned momentarily and then went out. I tried it a dozen more times, doing the same thing each time until finally it stayed lighted. After it was all burned, I got a half ounce of fresh gas and did the same thing. That fresh gas burned with one match until it was gone. That tells me a lot. Despite Stabil,l I conclude the TA's gas tank has a high amount of water mixed in with the gasoline. Sitting for 34 months in this very humid area is the culprit. Trying to start the engine with such a impure mixture may be part of the problem. I remain confused over the lack of spark though. Is there another way to test the spark at the wire, other than holding it in your hand. Ouch that smarts!  
So, I will add some "dry gas"to the gas tank, get some starting fluid this week, and give it another shot next weekend when my son is around to help me push the TA in and out of the garage. |
"Dedicated to keeping the classic Pontiac engine alive."
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Vid
Cochise
USA
581 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2010 : 3:42:51 PM
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I once had a Chevy truck that sat for a while and a family of field mice moved in under the the dash. They did a little number munching on some wiring, leaving the engine to where would crank but not fire. Took me a while to figure that one out. I hope that is not the case but it might be worth a look to double check the basics.
Hopefully it is something so easy you are going to discover it and say "DOH!" Good luck with it. |
""I'll get around to that NEXT weekend..."
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Vid
Cochise
USA
581 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2010 : 3:45:11 PM
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| Aha! Gas pains! |
""I'll get around to that NEXT weekend..."
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Phil
Great White Buffalo
3181 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2010 : 4:29:44 PM
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| Bill, remember Sta-Bil only extends the life of the fuel. 34 months is quite alot to ask of that product considering the state of affairs with modern gasoline. But I'm still curious as to why no spark. Try swapping out the module and clean the heat sink pad before applying new di-electric grease. |
Bowties are for Peewee Herman |
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Christ
Crazy Horse
USA
1295 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2010 : 6:02:37 PM
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Bill ,
I think you said you check if the distributor is turning?
You confirmed you have 12 volts?
Is the coil connection good?
Make sure the coil connection are still good? |
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Bob Kaplan
Cochise
USA
204 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2010 : 6:49:20 PM
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| I hope you don't wipe the cam from all the cranking. The HEI must have gone bad from all that nice warm weather down there. If it is turning the internals must be problem. The pickups on GM HEI fail allot. |
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Bill Boyle
Horse Feathers (Charter Member)
USA
1593 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2010 : 7:45:12 PM
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A faulty flux capacitor? Why didn't I think of that! Geeezz Brian, I'm a lawyer, not a mechanic.
This nonsense is just insane, but I'll get it up and running. Bob, I don't think there's any likelihood of ruining the lobes on the new cam by turning the motor over by mere cranking. The ZDDP and all the other goop I put on the lobes are there for when the engine turns at 1500+ rpms. I think it will be fine. On the HEI front, everything checked out when I took it out of the engine and ran it on my distributor machine. That was two years ago and the HEI was installed in the engine immediately after that. Although the heat in the garage reaches 85 on some hot days, it would have been subject to much more intense temperatures sitting outside in the Florida sunshine. The worst thing is that I'll work on the gas issues, add more fresh gasoline, give it a shot of starting fluid next weekend and see if it coughs or sputters. If there's no peep from it, I'll pull the distributor again and check out the internals again. BTW, I still have the original module in it. It's 31 years old. Heck, it's barely broken in at 47,000 miles.
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"Dedicated to keeping the classic Pontiac engine alive."
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Phil
Great White Buffalo
3181 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2010 : 8:13:44 PM
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Original module?!!! Yikes, replace it you cheapskate!
Btw I use the MSD modules as they are more robust and claim to give a longer duration spark. |
Bowties are for Peewee Herman |
Edited by - Phil on 21 Feb 2010 8:16:09 PM |
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rkellerjr
Cochise
USA
431 Posts |
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rad400
Cochise
USA
633 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2010 : 8:56:55 PM
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| Hey Bill I hope you can get this figured out, and get your car running soon. Good Luck. |
Conrad
79 Trans Am 400 auto Crower 60210 Torker II Holley 750 vac sec. #12 heads,3500 stall. |
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mike mcarthur
Pony that Jumps
USA
1303 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2010 : 09:48:03 AM
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| My bet is something in the distributor went to sleep and didn't wake up. Can you blame it? Like Rich said, we had the same problem with his. New dist. fixed it right up. |
It's the stuff you learn after you know it all that's important |
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Bill Boyle
Horse Feathers (Charter Member)
USA
1593 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2010 : 10:32:49 AM
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Mike--curious, what replacement distributor was installed in Rich's engine.
Bill |
"Dedicated to keeping the classic Pontiac engine alive."
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Brian R
Cochise
USA
862 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2010 : 11:02:25 AM
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I had the same symptoms a few years back - it was the pickup.
Good luck Bill. |
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mike mcarthur
Pony that Jumps
USA
1303 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2010 : 8:52:41 PM
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| The first one he bought from Advance against my wishes. I don't remember where the new one came from. I'm sure he'll post it. |
It's the stuff you learn after you know it all that's important |
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rkellerjr
Cochise
USA
431 Posts |
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mike mcarthur
Pony that Jumps
USA
1303 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2010 : 5:46:44 PM
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| I remember now Summit! :) |
It's the stuff you learn after you know it all that's important |
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Cobrabill
Talking Dog
Aruba
1372 Posts |
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Admin
Ye Olde Webmaster
306 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2010 : 3:25:18 PM
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Update: Saturday 27 Feb 2010:
I have starting fluid. 
I'm climbing the walls though. I had plans to pull the TA from the garage and give the engine start another try, however, unknown to me was the "big party" that started across the street late this morning. From all the 20-something ladies going in with packages it appears that our neighbor's son is getting married and the party is for his fiancee. Cars are parked everywhere.
I didn't want to try an engine start-up and potentially cause a disturbance to their party. If the party concludes earlier enough this afternoon and the rain holds off, I'll give it a shot. |
"Dedicated to keeping the classic Pontiac engine alive." |
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Vid
Cochise
USA
581 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2010 : 5:29:08 PM
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| Bill, you are a good neighbor! |
""I'll get around to that NEXT weekend..."
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Bill Boyle
Horse Feathers (Charter Member)
USA
1593 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2010 : 6:55:23 PM
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Vid--
Our neighbor's party broke up after 4pm and it was already pouring out with temperatures dropping again. Tomorrow is another day. Hopefully, I'll get to try in the afternoon weather permitting. |
"Dedicated to keeping the classic Pontiac engine alive."
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Cobrabill
Talking Dog
Aruba
1372 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2010 : 10:47:54 PM
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| So,you don't want to risk being up to your armpits in 20 something females?Just start the car. |
Green grass & high tides forever |
Edited by - Cobrabill on 27 Feb 2010 10:48:09 PM |
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Christ
Crazy Horse
USA
1295 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2010 : 10:59:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Cobrabill
So,you don't want to risk being up to your armpits in 20 something females?Just start the car.
Bill get it started! |
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mike mcarthur
Pony that Jumps
USA
1303 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2010 : 2:27:18 PM
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| Fire that puppy up! |
It's the stuff you learn after you know it all that's important |
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Admin
Ye Olde Webmaster
306 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2010 : 3:28:43 PM
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| No but my yelling and screaming could. |
"Dedicated to keeping the classic Pontiac engine alive." |
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Admin
Ye Olde Webmaster
306 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2010 : 6:33:25 PM
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Tired again...NO SPARK. For whatever reason, my HEI is not working. So out it comes for repair. All original parts; It had to give up the ghost some time.
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"Dedicated to keeping the classic Pontiac engine alive." |
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Bill Boyle
Horse Feathers (Charter Member)
USA
1593 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2010 : 1:43:06 PM
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| The ignition module tested okay but the test on the HEI ignition coil is questionable. So, I'll get a new one. |
"Dedicated to keeping the classic Pontiac engine alive."
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rad400
Cochise
USA
633 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2010 : 1:49:25 PM
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| So buy I new one already and fire that puppy up. |
Conrad
79 Trans Am 400 auto Crower 60210 Torker II Holley 750 vac sec. #12 heads,3500 stall. |
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Christ
Crazy Horse
USA
1295 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2010 : 11:29:21 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by rad400
So buy I new one already and fire that puppy up.
Sounds about right! |
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Phil
Great White Buffalo
3181 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2010 : 06:58:24 AM
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| Could be the nut behind the wheel. |
Bowties are for Peewee Herman |
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mike mcarthur
Pony that Jumps
USA
1303 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2010 : 12:18:37 PM
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| I assume you will be replacing the module, pickup, and coil? |
It's the stuff you learn after you know it all that's important |
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Bill Boyle
Horse Feathers (Charter Member)
USA
1593 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2010 : 1:26:20 PM
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 No Mike, just the coil. Everything else checked out.
Voltage test shows 11.68 volts to the distributor (not under load). |
"Dedicated to keeping the classic Pontiac engine alive."
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Vid
Cochise
USA
581 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2010 : 9:12:24 PM
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| We're all rooting for you Bill. Hope you get it figured out soon. Of all car issues, I dislike wiring problems the most. Give me a broken rocker stud or sticking carb float anyday. |
""I'll get around to that NEXT weekend..."
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Bill Boyle
Horse Feathers (Charter Member)
USA
1593 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2010 : 09:22:41 AM
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Thanks Vid--
Honestly, what makes me scratch my head over this is the fact that the car was driven into the garage. The ignition components all worked. They sat virtually undisturbed for 34 months, and then when called upon to work---Nothing. To me it's like unplugging a radio that worked and then plugging it in and---Nothing. Perplexing. The distributor was not dropped. It was removed during the cam swap, but nothing that I can think of happened that would suddenly make it operable. When I removed the dust cover, there was no signs of corrosion, cracking, anything to the coil. However, I performed an Ohm test on it and the readings, to me, were not right. The new NAPA replacement showed infinite Ohms--good, ready to go. So, Saturday, is my target date again. The module, which is a GM 990, original to the engine, tested out ok. There's juice getting to the distributor-it lighted my test light and shows 11.68 volts (without a load on the starter). With a shot of starter fluid, the engine should cough, sputter and briefly start, even if the gas is still bad. That's what I'm looking for on Saturday. |
"Dedicated to keeping the classic Pontiac engine alive."
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Exhausting Update: The last act (sort of)
