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tim72
Tribal Scout

Germany
19 Posts

Posted - 26 Oct 2009 :  01:57:54 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
are 62# heads ram air heads?
some people said 670,16,62 heads have the same flow...?
greets tim

Mr. P-Body
Running Bear

USA
2258 Posts

Posted - 26 Oct 2009 :  08:45:43 AM  Show Profile  Visit Mr. P-Body's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Tim,

The term "Ram Air head" is horribly abused in the Pontiac "world".

Within the "builder" crowd, "Ram Air head" is reserved for ROUND-port, small chamber heads. That would be the '68 "Ram Air II", and '69 and '70 Ram Air IV engines. The large-chamber round ports would be "HO" or "SD" heads. The Ram Air V head is quite unique ("tunnel port") and VERY rare, not part of this discussion.

With the advent of the "internet", many mythological changes have been "made" to the reality. Though the '69 and '70 366-horse 400s are labeled "Ram Air III", the heads used on them are standard production d-ports. Since the head castings were used on engines other than "Ram Air", the heads are not considered "Ram Air heads". The '69 engines had "48s" on them and the '70s had "12s". There MAY have been a few 366-horse versions in '69 with the "62s", but I've never found any evidence of that.

Of course, those SELLING the heads will INSIST they ARE "Ram AIr". It significantly increases the value, at the expense of the uninformed.

The few '67s equipped with "Ram Air" had production heads, nothing "special". The term "Ram Air" in this case refers mostly to the open hood scoop...

The two most common Ram Air head castings are the 722 ('69) and the 614 ('70). Maybe someone can "fill in" the casting number for the '68 Ram Air II engine.

Jim
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desbird
Sitting Bull

150 Posts

Posted - 26 Oct 2009 :  11:41:58 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
is the 13 heads the auto. no. for 12 stick head chuck
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Mr. P-Body
Running Bear

USA
2258 Posts

Posted - 26 Oct 2009 :  1:39:45 PM  Show Profile  Visit Mr. P-Body's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Chuck,

For "general applications, yes, 13 is the "auto trans" version. Not so with the 366-horse engines, though. EVERY '70 "Ram Air III" engine I've ever seen "untouched" had 12s, manual OR auto trans.

Jim
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Christ
Howling Wind

USA
1808 Posts

Posted - 26 Oct 2009 :  8:46:16 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christ's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. P-Body

Chuck,

For "general applications, yes, 13 is the "auto trans" version. Not so with the 366-horse engines, though. EVERY '70 "Ram Air III" engine I've ever seen "untouched" had 12s, manual OR auto trans.

Jim




I do have a set of bar number 12 sitting in the garage!
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tim72
Tribal Scout

Germany
19 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2009 :  3:31:22 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
thanks jim...i have understand....real ram air heads have round ports...
this winter i want to make the best with my new 62# heads...

greets tim
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rgraham3
Tribal Scout

USA
1 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2012 :  09:10:45 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
you can make plenty of power with those. on the street, the cam is way more important.
quote:
Originally posted by tim72

are 62# heads ram air heads?
some people said 670,16,62 heads have the same flow...?
greets tim

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rad400
War Paint

USA
1251 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2012 :  3:54:12 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A good port or gasket match and bowl blending and valve job is good for more air flow to the heads also do the intake manifold.

Conrad
79 Trans Am 400 auto Crower 60210 Torker II Holley 750 vac sec. #12 heads,3500 stall.

Edited by - rad400 on 09 Nov 2012 3:54:50 PM
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Phil
The Great White Buffalo

USA
7293 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2012 :  4:22:43 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
And even the actual "Ram Air" (cold air induction effectively) wasn't really "Ram Air" until 90 mph+.

Bowties are for Pee-wee Herman. LS swaps in Pontiacs should only apply to Fieros.
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Blued and Painted
Chief PONTIAC

USA
3506 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2012 :  9:54:02 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
debatable, My low compression car with the forward scoops will pull your hair back starting about 70


Bull Nose Formula/ 461/ Q-Jet/
TH400/ 3.08 8.5 / R44TS.
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Phil
The Great White Buffalo

USA
7293 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2012 :  10:41:30 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It was from one of the "founding fathers" of the GTO, Mr. Wangers.

Btw, what you're probably feeling is your particular cam, gearing or combo coming together at 70.

Bowties are for Pee-wee Herman. LS swaps in Pontiacs should only apply to Fieros.

Edited by - Phil on 09 Nov 2012 10:43:21 PM
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Merrik66
Cochise

USA
383 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2012 :  11:14:50 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yeah, I as well was told that I was purchasing a set of ram air heads years ago, the 48s. At some point I remember as well someone mentioning what p body mentioned in that they were off of a manual 69 firebird with the raim air induction hood. Curious though...what would a ram air 1 have been?....they should have named the ram air 2 round ports ram air 1 and the ram air 4 head the ram air 2 and #5 the 3. Too many #s gettin dizzy.
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WDCreech
Sitting Bull

USA
156 Posts

Posted - 10 Nov 2012 :  02:08:49 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by tim72

thanks jim...i have understand....real ram air heads have round ports...
greets tim


The origional Ram Air head, sometimes called Ram Air I, and the Ram Air III had D ports. The Ram Air II ('68-1/2 #96) and Ram Air IV ('69 #722 and '70 #614) had round ports along with the '71 and '72 HO and '73 and '74 Super Duty.

Bill
64 tube chassis GTO, 606 cu" IA tall deck, Superchief heads, glide, 2750lbs, 8.2550 @ 164.17, 1.1981-60'

Edited by - WDCreech on 10 Nov 2012 02:14:12 AM
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BearGFR
Bear

USA
589 Posts

Posted - 13 Nov 2012 :  3:17:48 PM  Show Profile  Visit BearGFR's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. P-Body
There MAY have been a few 366-horse versions in '69 with the "62s", but I've never found any evidence of that.


Well then, please allow me to provide the evidence. My early production 1969 GTO with the YS engine, of which I'm positive was the one it was born with (built new in late 1968 at the GM Plant in Arlington, Texas) had #62 heads on it. I still have them.

Bear
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Merrik66
Cochise

USA
383 Posts

Posted - 13 Nov 2012 :  7:32:18 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ram air 1 discussed as the #37, '68 400. By John Angeles n Pete mcarthy.
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jls69gto
Tribal Scout

USA
10 Posts

Posted - 14 Nov 2012 :  12:01:59 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi, I have a Automatic 69 GTO 400 cu/in YS code with 62 heads thats runs good on 92 pump gas. From what I've read, since it ran with leaded gas, will I have problems with the engine using 92 octane gas?
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sixt8bird
Chief Many Horses

USA
1114 Posts

Posted - 14 Nov 2012 :  12:26:58 PM  Show Profile  Visit sixt8bird's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jls69gto

Hi, I have a Automatic 69 GTO 400 cu/in YS code with 62 heads thats runs good on 92 pump gas. From what I've read, since it ran with leaded gas, will I have problems with the engine using 92 octane gas?


Pick the right cam and your 62s will blow you away with pump gas!!.
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rad400
War Paint

USA
1251 Posts

Posted - 15 Nov 2012 :  10:22:30 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
From what I have read the RAIV was the scoops and the scoops that were underneath the front bumper was the real RAIV 4 points of ramming air into the motor not the heads or cam alone. Now the bottom scoops never made it in to production. This was to be on the GTO. To me this makes the most sense. Can't explain RAI, III or V. RAII would make sense as ram air on the hood scoops. Now I understand that the scoops has to be the best design for a true ram air effect.

Conrad
79 Trans Am 400 auto Crower 60210 Torker II Holley 750 vac sec. #12 heads,3500 stall.
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5459 Posts

Posted - 15 Nov 2012 :  10:30:12 AM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Honestly, cold air induction is about the only real benefit to most any ram air setup. What it makes you believe is that you're going fast so it's kind of turbo charging the motor with forced air. Fact is, if you were making more pressure into the carb than it was sucking, then there'd be different jetting, etc for ram air cars, because you'd have a slight boost going on. There'd be guys with ram air setups having detonation issues that non ram air guys wouldn't have with the same parts.

What the marketing is pitching is a ramjet or scramjet effect on performance, that going fast will give the car more power from the air ramming in. In all honestly, it's just a cool option with literally no or almost no benefit...removing the spoiler or mirrors from a car will likely give you a couple more top mph than having a ram air option (which, when poorly designed, can actually create turbulance and slow your top end mph down some.)

With that being said, factory cold air induction is pretty sweet on the neat and cool factors. I think testing has shown that cowl induction is the best, but i'm not sure where i read that. The difference between no ram air, ram air, and cowl induction was like slim to none but was there a little.
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jls69gto
Tribal Scout

USA
10 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2012 :  04:26:17 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What's a good hydraulic cam with power yet streetable to go with the #62 heads? any opinion is greatly appreciated.
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rad400
War Paint

USA
1251 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2012 :  08:20:11 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Depends on rest of your combo and compreesion CID as well.

Conrad
79 Trans Am 400 auto Crower 60210 Torker II Holley 750 vac sec. #12 heads,3500 stall.
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Bill Boyle
Horse Feathers (Charter Member)

USA
5189 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2012 :  10:20:12 AM  Show Profile  Visit Bill Boyle's Homepage  Reply with Quote
jlS69gto, you asked: "What's a good hydraulic cam with power yet streetable to go with the #62 heads? any opinion is greatly appreciated."

A dual pattern camshaft betwenn 220-224 degrees intake @ .050" and 112 LSA. This has good vac and good power from idle to 5200 rpm.

"Dedicated to keeping the classic Pontiac engine alive."

----
400 bored +.030, forged TRW pistons, ported 62 heads, Hedman headers, 2.5 SS dual exhaust X Pypes, Comp 276AH10 cam, Scorpion 1.65 RR, 850 Q-jet, stock intake & tuned HEI; original owner.
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the70judge
Tribal Scout

Canada
1 Posts

Posted - 14 Nov 2014 :  8:39:19 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So That means that all the Ram Air III GTO's and Judges like mine do not have Ram Air heads , and actually that is one of the options in the Judge?

PStack
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Phil
The Great White Buffalo

USA
7293 Posts

Posted - 14 Nov 2014 :  10:19:44 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yes, RAIII heads are D-Port smaller chamber heads like many others of the era. To me it was more of a performance package.

Bowties are for Pee-wee Herman. LS swaps in Pontiacs should only apply to Fieros.
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tatycho
Tribal Scout

Canada
1 Posts

Posted - 31 Dec 2014 :  1:00:28 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I thought the D port 12, 13's, etc, had better port dimensions in the throat then low perf d ports? Please educate me.
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Douglas Willinger
Sitting Bull

USA
140 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2018 :  11:31:24 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
1968 Ram Air 1 was #31. Not sure if the #31 heads came on any other Pontiac engines.

1969 Ram Air III heads were #48. The #48 heads were also used on the 350HO, with somewhat smaller chambers.

1970 Ram Air III heads were #12. The #12 heads also came on the standard GTO 400 engine with manual transmission.

I am not aware of any other stock applications that used the #31, #48 or #12 heads, which are very similar to the standard production 4 barrel carburetor large valve heads, as #16, #62 and #13 - higher compression heads, the 1970 #64 87cc chamber 455 heads, as well as the lower compression 1971 #96 (400), #66 (455) and 1972 7K3 (400) and 7M5 (455) heads.

#12, #13, #16, #31, #48, #62, the #64, and the #96 heads, (and even the #66 if milled say 0.065 to bring the chamber down from 112+ to about 94 ccs) are all great heads to work with. The 1972 heads alas lack the previous full set of exhaust manifold bolts. If the heads are to be ported, there is no reason to spend extra for #31, #48 or #12 heads, performance-wise, and any of these heads would benefit with replacing the exhaust manifolds with the appropriate "Ram Air" large exhaust manifolds, which probably should have been standard equipment on all of Pontiac's V-8 for improved efficiency, though surely with more cases of starter motor heat soak.

Yes, the only Pontiac heads that were absolutely exclusive to the "Ram Air" engines were the round exhaust port, smaller open chamber heads, starting with the 1968 1/2 #96 Ram Air II, the 1969 #722 Ram Air IV, and the 1970 #614 Ram Air IV.

The Ram Air 1 and III are roughly the same thing. What happened was that Pontiac came up with the Ram Air IV designation for 1969 in reference to a proposed air induction system with 4 entryways, hence not using the Ram Air II designation (perhaps also because the Ram Air IV improved the intake port and switched to the aluminum intake with separate iron crossover). So the d-port engine sold as a Ram Air engine (as marked by the cold air intake and the better exhaust manifolds) became called the Ram Air III. When Pontiac lowered the compression ratios for 1971 (weirdly all the way down from a low to mid 10 to 1 to low 8 to 1 rather than say 9 to 1), they also foolishly eliminated the better exhaust manifolds from the 400, further reducing efficiency.

Edited by - Douglas Willinger on 01 Aug 2018 01:48:32 AM
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tjs44
Crazy Horse

USA
600 Posts

Posted - 17 Jul 2018 :  11:26:38 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
All 69 stick shift 400 birds and gtos got 48 heads.I believe auto RA 69 birds got 62 heads,not sure about GTOs.Tom
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loosetappet
Sitting Bull

129 Posts

Posted - 31 Jul 2018 :  9:09:09 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My 69 Firebird 400/4spd came from the factory with 62 heads. Just a plain 400/330 non ram air engine. I have seen both 48s and 62s on similar 69 Birds leading me to believe that Pontiac may have used whatever comparable heads they had in the plant. This was common back in the day, since they would do almost anything to avoid "inventory related downtime".
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Seabecker
Tribal Scout

USA
2 Posts

Posted - 08 Jan 2019 :  09:49:01 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by loosetappet

My 69 Firebird 400/4spd came from the factory with 62 heads. Just a plain 400/330 non ram air engine. I have seen both 48s and 62s on similar 69 Birds leading me to believe that Pontiac may have used whatever comparable heads they had in the plant. This was common back in the day, since they would do almost anything to avoid "inventory related downtime".

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Seabecker
Tribal Scout

USA
2 Posts

Posted - 08 Jan 2019 :  09:57:29 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have a question for those who may be in the know. I have a 69 Firebird 400 with a 4-speed. It has 62 heads. I have read differing information on various sites about the head numbers. Some say 62 heads were only for 400s with automatic transmissions and 48 heads reserved for manual transmissions. But others say 62s could be used on either. Anyone have an answer?

quote:
Originally posted by loosetappet

My 69 Firebird 400/4spd came from the factory with 62 heads. Just a plain 400/330 non ram air engine. I have seen both 48s and 62s on similar 69 Birds leading me to believe that Pontiac may have used whatever comparable heads they had in the plant. This was common back in the day, since they would do almost anything to avoid "inventory related downtime".

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tjs44
Crazy Horse

USA
600 Posts

Posted - 08 Jan 2019 :  11:53:51 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
EVERY 69 stick shift car I have personally owned and seen had 48s,many like you have seen 62s on stick shift cars.Doing this since 1962 I have now learned to NEVER say NEVER about cars and engines put together by humans.Tom
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loosetappet
Sitting Bull

129 Posts

Posted - 22 Feb 2019 :  3:52:17 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by tjs44

EVERY 69 stick shift car I have personally owned and seen had 48s,many like you have seen 62s on stick shift cars.Doing this since 1962 I have now learned to NEVER say NEVER about cars and engines put together by humans.Tom



Totally agree. It's a miracle some of the Pontiacs didn't end up with Chevy heads on them (LOL), given the production problems inherent in building a product with thousands of parts. I have seen 69 Birds (400s) with either 48s or 62s although all the 350 HOs seem to have 48s. Go figure.

Edited by - loosetappet on 22 Feb 2019 3:54:48 PM
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