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rkellerjr
Cochise
USA
428 Posts |
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Brian R
Cochise
USA
862 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Dec 2008 : 08:19:38 AM
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| Can't be for real. God help us if it is. |
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Mr. P-Body
Running Bear
USA
1506 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2008 : 08:29:03 AM
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Well, I'm all "for" "moral law". Now, who's "moral code" do we adopt? Not mine? Well, then I'm against it... (Argh! Argh! Humor...)
We've sen this stuff before. If they DO try to rewrite it, they've underestimated the power of We, the People. It wouldn't be the first time, probably not the last. Messing with The Bill of Rights will certainly bring out the angry hornets...
Jim |
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PontiacMatt
Cochise
USA
654 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2008 : 08:30:56 AM
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I can't believe it either. If they want a more modern version then just write a modern interpretation of the original document. I sure hope they don't get those last 2 states...
Who knows what tomorrow holds, but I don't think it's too farfetched to believe that, along with the election of Barrack Obama, if a new constitution is created and enacted, The United States of America could possibly see a second civil war. Of course this is just my own speculation and I hope we never see such a thing. But as I said, who knows? |
*72' Pontiac Lemans* - Work in Progress |
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Brian R
Cochise
USA
862 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2008 : 09:22:06 AM
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If they "F" with the Bill of Rights I WILL take up arms.
As far as I am concerned, anyone who mess's with the constitution is a treasonous scum who deserves to die - be it by hanging, firing squad, what ever. It is treason. The problem is that there may be no courts left to enforce this. I WILL fight for the United States of America.
Those who voted for the likes of Pelosi and Obama have caused this.
You should be ashamed of the "change" that could possibly come. |
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Phil
Great White Buffalo
3177 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2008 : 09:59:48 AM
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Everyone has their own limit. Many of us, once stripped of everything including hope by an oppressive government, will take up arms against the machine just like our forefathers.
Only then would I feel justified in my actions. Once unleashed however, it is truly a fight to the death.
That's why the "Patriot" is such a great movie, in my opinion.
BTW, one only has to take a cursory glance at the "worldnetdaily" site to see it as it is: A political "National Enquirer" rag. The only thing missing was Obama tagged as a space alien poised to invade our country with a billion Marvin Martian soldiers! 
And imagine, I didn't even vote for the guy! Jeeez! |
Bowties are for Peewee Herman |
Edited by - Phil on 17 Dec 2008 10:06:13 AM |
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Mr. P-Body
Running Bear
USA
1506 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2008 : 1:51:42 PM
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Obama? How did HE get into this discussion? ALl this has been going on long before he has been "on the scene", and it involves BOTH "sides" of the aisle. They've been trying to circumvent The Constitution since the late '50s without real success. The only way "they" (the US Government, no matter WHAT "party") can impose their agenda is to rewrite it to favor them instead of US!
I would lighten up on the "take up arms" talk, at least in a public forum. "Big Brother" IS watching!
Jim |
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Brian R
Cochise
USA
862 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2008 : 3:00:22 PM
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Good - I hope they are watching. True Patriots will be glad there are people willing to fight for the Constitution. Only those trying to destroy us should have issue - and those are the ones we need to fight against and beware of. I would never take the law into my own hands as long as the law still exists. Re-writing the Bill of Rights means the America we know will no longer exist. If, God forbid, that ever occurs I will no longer have laws to obey. I will have dictums forced upon me that do not represent our current country. At that point, all bets are off.
Obama and Pelosi are examples of the powers we do not want touching our constitution. They are so far left of left that they are on the borderline between Socialism and Communism. Regardless of whom on the Right has ever tried to make changes, none of those changes EVER have leaned towards Socialism. That piece of our government has ALWAYS been on the left to include the numerous "factually proven" communists in F.D.R's administration. It's been going on that long...
So bringing Obama into this is most pertinent. Only those who believe his BS and voted for him would not see that.
Socialists are patient. Think of all of the a-hole laws that pass. Generally they are initially approached with the view of - We know it will fail the first 2, 3, 4(? times). It doesn't matter because eventually it will pass. That is the MO for these types of actions and it works. It may take 10 or 20 years, but, each additional freedom lost starts somewhere.
Beware True Americans - we need to stand up for the greatest country civilization has ever known.
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rkellerjr
Cochise
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2008 : 3:04:31 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr. P-Body
Obama? How did HE get into this discussion? ALl this has been going on long before he has been "on the scene", and it involves BOTH "sides" of the aisle. They've been trying to circumvent The Constitution since the late '50s without real success. The only way "they" (the US Government, no matter WHAT "party") can impose their agenda is to rewrite it to favor them instead of US!
I would lighten up on the "take up arms" talk, at least in a public forum. "Big Brother" IS watching!
Jim
I'd agree that both sides of the isle have been on this agenda. This is the first I've heard of it so I thought I'd post and see if anyone else had info on it.
quote:
Originally posted by Phil
BTW, one only has to take a cursory glance at the "worldnetdaily" site to see it as it is: A political "National Enquirer" rag.
Don't shoot the messenger, shoot the message if there are issues. Even the National Inquirer gets it right sometimes. |
Rich
1975 TA - http://www.78ta.com/gallery2/main.php/v/rkellerjr/
Video: http://www.zenonline.com/~rkeller/Videos/75showcar.wmv
 
"...I know that the Lord is always on the side of the right. But it is my constant anxiety and prayer that I and this nation should be on the Lord's side." - Abraham Lincoln |
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PontiacMatt
Cochise
USA
654 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2008 : 3:04:51 PM
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ah, they did mention something in the article about those who are attempting to gather a "constitutional convention" being influenced and hoping to gain a "second effort" with the election of Obama, but never mentions anything of Obama himself getting involved. Jim, you're right though, this has been going on long before Obama was ever elected... as has attempts to take away the second amendment. Neither of these has ever been succesful, yet. (Thank goodness). But notice the similarity? sometimes it just takes a certain person (the "right" person in some's opinions) for something to be done/succesful.
As Phil said, probably can't take this source all too seriously.
Never know what tomorrow holds. |
*72' Pontiac Lemans* - Work in Progress |
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Brian R
Cochise
USA
862 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2008 : 3:36:44 PM
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| Buy your guns now Boys! |
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rkellerjr
Cochise
USA
428 Posts |
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Mark S.
Cochise
USA
351 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2008 : 5:42:58 PM
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Good thing there'll be 20,000 troops stationed inside the U.S. borders... ;)
Boy, that news site is a bit "off" center, isn't it?
Obama's "people" talk the talk, but he'll govern from the middle. You'll see. |
Never enough cubes...
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
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Mr. P-Body
Running Bear
USA
1506 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2008 : 08:16:18 AM
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Brian,
Unfortunately, it's the people with the badges and guns that ARE trying to destroy The Constitution (and watching, and MAKING LISTS). I can say for sure, Mr. Obama was NOT involved with The Patriot Act (a piece of "legislation" that CLEARLY illustrates their agenda). Pelosi MAY have approved, I don't know. I DO know, a RAFT of Republicans voted FOR it, so save the right-wing rah-rah. They're in it as deep as EVERYONE ELSE. As a matter of fact, THEY spear-headed it. You (and others) REALLY need to get a grip on this "right-wing/left-wing" thing. This is NOT "partisan" politics, this is the US Government "against" We, the People. If they can keep people like you believing it's "the Dems" or "the liberals", they WILL get what they want. It's an age-old tactic, "playing both sides against the middle". "They" lost people like me in the 1970s when we looked closely at their policies and the Viet Nam War. It's time for you to wake up and smell the same "coffee" (another word fits better, but Bill wouldn't like it)we smelled back then, and the odor still lingers.
Jim
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Brian Baker
Mongo
USA
1045 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2008 : 11:17:13 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark S.
Obama's "people" talk the talk, but he'll govern from the middle. You'll see.
I hope for the nations sake you are correct, but there has never been a liberal Democrat in the White House or in Congress that has ever governed from the middle...unless forced to do so by a conservative Republican from the other side of the aisle. I fear there may not be enough conservative Republicans left to do such a thing. |
Will Rogers never met a liberal. |
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Phil
Great White Buffalo
3177 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2008 : 11:21:32 AM
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| So far Obama is disappointing the far left liberals by showing that he is more central than many thought. That is just what this country needs and at the right time. Finally, a person interested in what the majority wants. You know, the majority of normal Americans who are level headed (center). I still say, sit back and give the guy a chance. I think he is going to be a pleasant surprise. |
Bowties are for Peewee Herman |
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Roy Russell
Brave that Heals
USA
201 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2008 : 9:32:39 PM
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| Our current leaders have proven time and time again that the constitution and most other laws simply don't apply to them. This type of action would only serve to make it official. Nazi Germany made all their actions legal by changing the law of the land without public consent or in most cases public knowledge. History is a great teacher. Soon lead will be more valuable than gold if things continue to circle the proverbial drain. Hope for the best - prepare for the worst. |
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Brian Baker
Mongo
USA
1045 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2008 : 10:45:12 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Phil
So far Obama is disappointing the far left liberals by showing that he is more central than many thought. That is just what this country needs and at the right time. Finally, a person interested in what the majority wants. You know, the majority of normal Americans who are level headed (center). I still say, sit back and give the guy a chance. I think he is going to be a pleasant surprise.
More centrist? The majority of his cabinet posts to date are leftovers from the Clinton administration...all lefties...all liberals. Perhaps they're pissed at him because of this? Perhaps they think the old Clintonista's are no longer liberal enough or far enough to the left? And his appointment of Arizona Governor Janet Napolitano to head the Homeland Security office? She's as far to the left on the illegal alien issue as anyone can get, and now whe will be in charge of guarding our borders. How is that centrist? |
Will Rogers never met a liberal. |
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Phil
Great White Buffalo
3177 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 05:28:34 AM
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| Hey, if a retard can be President for 8 years, even Mickey Mouse is an improvement! |
Bowties are for Peewee Herman |
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Brian R
Cochise
USA
862 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 08:48:45 AM
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Retard or not, no attacks on American soil since 9/11/01.
Now the usual response from liberals will be: What does that have to do with Bush? Answer: EVERYTHING! Who cares if the rest of the world hates us? The fact is, most of the rest of the world is thankful to George for letting us be the "Bad Guys" while they hide behind us from danger and publicly trash us.
Don't forget, we have saved the world over and over and yet some how always ended up the bad guys in the eyes of most of the world. WWI, WWII, the Cold War, etc. George has not been a great president - true. To blame everything on him is a case of ignorance and blind allegiance to the Left. The economy is the fault of Congress and Corporate American greed. 9/11 is largely the fault of Clinton's lack of understanding towards the Middle East, and his entire staff's complete
disrespect and disregard for anything to do with the military, the CIA, and the FBI. History has already proven this and yet
So what is this socialist ass doing - bringing in more leftist left-overs from the Clinton era. We're in trouble folks.
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Brian Baker
Mongo
USA
1045 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 09:05:07 AM
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| Brian R gets it. Phil is being an ostrich. |
Will Rogers never met a liberal. |
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Brian R
Cochise
USA
862 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 09:18:45 AM
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Where does an Ostrich put it's head????
Oh yeah, the sand - phew..... |
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Mr. P-Body
Running Bear
USA
1506 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 10:34:09 AM
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You got it backwards. WWI and WWII were NECESSARY. The war in Iraq was trumped up and is PHONY. Lies to start it, lies to continue it. LIES, LIES , LIES... YOU DON'T GET IT! DO NOT compare those wars of necessity to the one of excuses.
While it IS true, no attacks, it's NOT because of the war in Iraq. It's because they have "him" bottled up. What you DO NOT GET, is that we (the cast majority of Americans) don't WANT him "bottled up". WE WANT HIS ASS!!! Mr. Obama has promised to take care of that. What will you do when he does? Figure out a way to blame him for something else?
Baker, when are you going to grasp that you are "passe". NOBDOY CARES WHAT YOU THINK!!! Since one of "your own" cornered you here and exposed you as a fraud, you should just go on back to PY's "Club House", 'cuz that's the only place you will find real "comfort", among the rest of the right-wing nut-jobs. You've got your head in something alright, but it sure isn't SAND!
Jim |
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Brian R
Cochise
USA
862 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 11:01:07 AM
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Jim,
Who cornered Baker? |
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Brian Baker
Mongo
USA
1045 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 11:36:15 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr. P-Body
You got it backwards. WWI and WWII were NECESSARY. The war in Iraq was trumped up and is PHONY. Lies to start it, lies to continue it. LIES, LIES , LIES... YOU DON'T GET IT! DO NOT compare those wars of necessity to the one of excuses.
While it IS true, no attacks, it's NOT because of the war in Iraq. It's because they have "him" bottled up. What you DO NOT GET, is that we (the cast majority of Americans) don't WANT him "bottled up". WE WANT HIS ASS!!! Mr. Obama has promised to take care of that. What will you do when he does? Figure out a way to blame him for something else?
Baker, when are you going to grasp that you are "passe". NOBDOY CARES WHAT YOU THINK!!! Since one of "your own" cornered you here and exposed you as a fraud, you should just go on back to PY's "Club House", 'cuz that's the only place you will find real "comfort", among the rest of the right-wing nut-jobs. You've got your head in something alright, but it sure isn't SAND!
Jim
Agreed that WW-I and WW-II were absolutely neccessary to rid the world from tyrants. As for Iraq, you can Monday morning quarterback it all you want...the Commander in Chief doesn't have that luxury...he has/had to go on whatever intel' was available at the time. Here are some facts that we do know:
1.) The Gulf War ended in a cease fire, not a treaty. As such Saddam had to meet certain criteria for the cease fire to remain.
2.) Saddam spent 12 years thumbing his nose at the U.N. with the last 4 of them having thrown out weapons inspectors from Iraq.
3.) Representatives from Iraq DID IN FACT make a trip to Niger, presumably to purchase yellow cake uranium (what else were they there for that Niger exports [rolls eyes]?).
4.) Intel' indicated Saddam was working to get his nuclear facilities online.
5.) Once we went in, evidence of banned munitions and weaponology were found (centrifuges, gas masks and bio suits stored at schools and hospitals, missiles, mustard gas that was supposed to have been destroyed, MIG fighter jets buried in the desert, along with other weaponoly and munitions manufactured by France, Germany, and Russia AFTER the U.N. sanctions banning them were passed).
Saddam and his sons are dead, and as a result we have freed roughly 40 million people from their tyranny, and that's a bad thing? Muslim extremists (ie - Al Quaida) are being killed in Iraq, and that's a bad thing? Muslim women for the first time in the history of ALL of the land in that part of the world that is Muslim are able to VOTE in a true FREE ELECTION PROCESS, and that's a bad thing?
We haven't been attacked since 9/11 not because Bin Laden is "bottled up" but because we have gone on the offensive and are killing extremist Muslims where we can find them. We have placed their organizations in disarray to the point where they cannot organize like they once did. We found communications papers in Iraq that was intended for correspondance between their operatives discussing this disarray and what they could do to turn it around. It's a different world now after 9/11, we can no longer sit and do nothing, we have to continue in routing out these Muslims that would kill us and kill them first, it's that simple. If Obama continues this agressive stance, and we find Bin Laden and kill him, I will heap the highest praise on him as our President and Commander in Chief. But he has to do it first...so far all he's given us as any clue to what he would do is to sit down and talk with Iran's President without any pre-existing conditions on the talk.
I see my signature still chaps your ass, Jim. Your words, not mine. I'm pro-life and I would never talk about an abortion clinic bomber in any context, let alone suggesting they were "good guys" because like me, they are pro-life too. They're whackjob kooks, just like Ayers and the rest of the Weatherman. Fact is, Jim...you pot smoking hippie liberals have never been right about anything...except maybe where to get the best pot.
As for nobody caring what I have to say? There's plenty...just as there are plenty that don't care about what a pot smoking hippie liberal throwback like yourself has to say. As for people not liking what I have to say...tough $h!t...I'd rather be right than be a well liked kiss-ass. |
Will Rogers never met a liberal. |
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Brian R
Cochise
USA
862 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 12:25:38 PM
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Brian Baker - Excellent points based on fact !
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Cobrabill
Talking Dog
Aruba
1369 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 12:27:04 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr. P-Body
Well, I'm all "for" "moral law".Jim
Exactly how do you legislate morals? |
Green grass & high tides forever |
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Cobrabill
Talking Dog
Aruba
1369 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 12:35:46 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr. P-Body
You got it backwards. WWI and WWII were NECESSARY. The war in Iraq was trumped up and is PHONY. Lies to start it, lies to continue it. LIES, LIES , LIES... YOU DON'T GET IT! DO NOT compare those wars of necessity to the one of excuses.
While it IS true, no attacks, it's NOT because of the war in Iraq. It's because they have "him" bottled up. What you DO NOT GET, is that we (the cast majority of Americans) don't WANT him "bottled up". WE WANT HIS ASS!!! Mr. Obama has promised to take care of that. What will you do when he does? Figure out a way to blame him for something else?
Baker, when are you going to grasp that you are "passe". NOBDOY CARES WHAT YOU THINK!!! Since one of "your own" cornered you here and exposed you as a fraud, you should just go on back to PY's "Club House", 'cuz that's the only place you will find real "comfort", among the rest of the right-wing nut-jobs. You've got your head in something alright, but it sure isn't SAND!
Jim
Hussein need to go-he gone.We are never leaving the mid-East.We HAVE to have a close "jumping-off"spot to bitch slap the muslims when we go to war with them.Notice i said WHEN-not "if".
The more dead Muslims-the better.We need to keep killing them.As many as possible.
Jim-you got it backwards-No-one cares what liberals think.BTW-Who cornered Baker?
Baker and myslef have never been cornered and never will.Because we are not liberals |
Green grass & high tides forever |
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John-Henry
White Buffalo
USA
96 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 1:11:56 PM
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Is it just me, or is arguing over the reasons for Iraq a bit pointless? We are there. There are plenty of good reasons for us to be there, and also many bad reasons to be there. Like it or not we are there, and hopefully we finish the job.
What everyone seems to forget is that all of our issues lately (wars, economy, education) were all nonpartisan issues. Plenty of blame to go around. Instead of pointing fingers, how about we pick up the peices and move forward.
I'm conservative, but I'll back Obama until he proves otherwise. Somewhere we have forgotten to respect the President's office (making negative movies while one is still in office). Many of his ideas do irritate me, however he does possess something Bush lacked: leadership. Its not that Bush's policies were terrible, the problem is that Bush could not lead the majority of the country to understand and back his policies. I learned in the Marine Corps, leadership in an opposite direction is far better than a lack of leadership.
The main problem I find when discussing Iraq is that people are not open to any thought than they already perceive. Liberals only look for negative points and try to correlate Iraq to Vietnam. Conservatives blindly back the war and search for all the positives available. What happens is that the soldier gets left behind. I've been there, seen it first hand, and seen a larger aspect... but interestingly enough, no one ever takes a soldier/Marine for thier word (but somehow everyone loves and backs the troops?). My suggestion? Turn off CNN, Fox, MSN, etc and start talking to people that have actually been there. Take off the blinders and work together. United we stand, divided we fall.
JHC |
Edited by - John-Henry on 23 Dec 2008 4:00:46 PM |
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Brian R
Cochise
USA
862 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 1:31:24 PM
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John,
I do believe we all (both sides) just got Biotch Slapped !
Thank you for that and for having served for us (all of us).
You are obviously a gentleman. |
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Mr. P-Body
Running Bear
USA
1506 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 2:29:15 PM
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Brian,
No, your ignorance and self-righteous avoidance of the obvious chaps my "ass" more than your pathetic attempt at humiliating me. Did you not realize, I get MANY questions about your tag line. Nearly all are "Who the hell are the weathermen?" Most people have no idea what you mean or what you're talking about, so I've left it alone. Still, it would show a semblance of class if you were to include the entire statement instead of misleading EVERYONE that reads it. But that would take honor, and you have shown time and again, you have none.
And your "facts" are nothing more than Bush administration rhetoric and have no bearing on truth. We've all heard it over and over oand over and over and over and over.... It was lies in 2003 and it's STILL lies today. Only the sheep are fooled.
John-Henry,
Because it's time to get them the hell out. That's why. B-A-G-D-H-A-D... Saigon in Arabic. 4,200-plus lives WASTED there, and more to come. When we DO leave next year, it will all be left to the "bad guys" to fight amongst themselves. FACK IRUQ! Let 'em eat oil and sand... And, no matter what Baker says, I am no "liberal". Viet Nam era vets are among the MOST vocal at getting OUT. Perhaps younger vets like yourself should ask themselves why that is, instead of applying erroneous labels to them and writing them off as meaningless. Take the soldier's word? Okay. Let's start with the older, wiser ones that have distance between themselves and their trauma.
One thing we DID learn from Viet Nam was to NOT blame the individual soldiers for the political failures.
"You know what the hardest part of my job is? Connecting the war on terror with what we're doing in Iraq." G.W. Bush, 2005. That's not poor leadership or bad communication, that's fabrication and plain ol' dishonesty.
And I MUST disagree. The war in Afghanistan is NOT a partisan war. THAT'S where the REAL "bad guys" are and the Bush administration's token offensive there was to distract us from his real agenda, the middle eastern oil fields. He simply didn't anticipate We, the People, waking up as early as we did. Had he had HIS way, we'd be at war with Iran today. Had he expended HALF the resources in Afghanistan he has in Iraq, Bin Laden would be swinging from a tree in Central Park (covered in pork chops...) and we could be getting on with "life". That line "we're there now" is a pretty poor excuse for throwing away MORE young lives for nothing.
Peace.
Jim |
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Brian R
Cochise
USA
862 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 4:01:56 PM
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| Bake - I do believe Jim is addressing you - I'll let you reply. |
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John-Henry
White Buffalo
USA
96 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 4:11:41 PM
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Jim,
My last post was an attempt at showing that niether side is entirely correct, or entirely wrong. The truth lies in the center. Jim, are you trying to pick a fight with me? I insulted no one, and if I did, my apologies.
Maybe the ol' webmaster was right on being aprehensive in a general discussion forum. It might work with other sites, as a younger generation are more able to accept opposing views. A bunch of old guys stuck in thier ways, angry at the opposing party with a complete lack of tolarance for the other is a volitile mix I suppose.
What is more important about this site: Everyone's love for the Poncho or thier hate for politics? Everyone needs to choose. Maybe I haven't been here for awhile, but if its the latter, then leave......
My apologies Mr. Boyle for pushing for this type of forum, you were right... its like trying to get preschoolers to get along on the playground.... |
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rkellerjr
Cochise
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 5:55:25 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by John-Henry
Is it just me, or is arguing over the reasons for Iraq a bit pointless? We are there. There are plenty of good reasons for us to be there, and also many bad reasons to be there. Like it or not we are there, and hopefully we finish the job.
What everyone seems to forget is that all of our issues lately (wars, economy, education) were all nonpartisan issues. Plenty of blame to go around. Instead of pointing fingers, how about we pick up the peices and move forward.
I'm conservative, but I'll back Obama until he proves otherwise. Somewhere we have forgotten to respect the President's office (making negative movies while one is still in office). Many of his ideas do irritate me, however he does possess something Bush lacked: leadership. Its not that Bush's policies were terrible, the problem is that Bush could not lead the majority of the country to understand and back his policies. I learned in the Marine Corps, leadership in an opposite direction is far better than a lack of leadership.
The main problem I find when discussing Iraq is that people are not open to any thought than they already perceive. Liberals only look for negative points and try to correlate Iraq to Vietnam. Conservatives blindly back the war and search for all the positives available. What happens is that the soldier gets left behind. I've been there, seen it first hand, and seen a larger aspect... but interestingly enough, no one ever takes a soldier/Marine for thier word (but somehow everyone loves and backs the troops?). My suggestion? Turn off CNN, Fox, MSN, etc and start talking to people that have actually been there. Take off the blinders and work together. United we stand, divided we fall.
JHC
Well said John, plenty of blame to go all around. |
Rich
1975 TA - http://www.78ta.com/gallery2/main.php/v/rkellerjr/
Video: http://www.zenonline.com/~rkeller/Videos/75showcar.wmv
"...I know that the Lord is always on the side of the right. But it is my constant anxiety and prayer that I and this nation should be on the Lord's side." - Abraham Lincoln |
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JOHN-M
White Buffalo
USA
76 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 9:49:06 PM
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John-Henry
Don't throw in the towel so quickly. The general discussion board is not all that bad. There still is some tension from previous threads and the election that are showing up here.
I personally like the political talk when you can keep it at a civil level. Sometimes thats hard to do and even the best can get hot under the collar when the right button is pushed. I enjoy listening or reading what a person has to say especially if it is a different opinion then my own. I may not agree still, but at least you can learn why a person feels a certain way.
I hope Mr Boyle is okay that you outed him with "its like trying to get preschoolers to get along on the playground...." line.  There are a couple of loud mouth types on the pre-school playground but I don't think I have ever been to a playground that has not had a few. One of them may be calling you a "liberal" or maybe just a "kiss a$$" since you are kind of floating around in the middle
Anyway I thought what you said was good and hope you continue to add input.
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Phil
Great White Buffalo
3177 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 9:53:19 PM
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| Who the heck are the Weathermen? |
Bowties are for Peewee Herman |
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JOHN-M
White Buffalo
USA
76 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 10:15:06 PM
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| Did I mention that we also have a few smart a$$ types on the playground also. |
Edited by - JOHN-M on 23 Dec 2008 10:15:42 PM |
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Mr. P-Body
Running Bear
USA
1506 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2008 : 08:09:03 AM
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J-H,
No, not trying to pick a fight with ANYONE. I have grown weary of reading "party line" when it comes to the useless loss of life in a war that is both immoral and illegal. It is espacially true when there's a REAL enemy out there and our "leaders" are using that as an excuse to further their own agenda. You may be fooled into believing blind obedience to the government is okay, but I am not. Since you're no longer IN the military, it's okay for you to think "outside" the box. It's an adjustment, but it can be done!
Okay. "Roll call". All those that believe it's okay for our government to LIE to us to promote their policies, raise your hands! What lies? WMDs, Jessica Lynch and Pat Tillman for "starters". And no, Baker, I do NOT mean the "friendly fire", I mean the falsehoods generated from that incident used in a crude attempt at increasing support for the failed policies of a corrupt administration. It's the lies that bother me. THAT'S where the parallel to Viet Nam is relevant. A "just" war needs to be fought, but it was NEVER in Iraq...
John M. is right, too (as in "correct"). There are still many here "bleeding" from the reality of the last election. Their illusions of power and control have been dashed! Their "fear mongering" campaign failed. If Mr. Obama turns out to be a good president, their worst fears will come to pass (it will be impossible to use the "white is right" argument in the future...). You did indeed, miss some of the "fun" during the election.
Bill,
Go back a few threads and read Baker's lack of response to another that challenges him to explain "what is a conservative". He can't. All he can do is vaguely point at Ronny Raygun and HIS view. Independent thought is not within Baker's ability.
To all:
Because John-Henry and Bill are my friends, I will end my involvement in this thread here and now. Just be aware and don't be fooled. The same people that are selling you out to the bankers on Wall Street, while turning their backs on common working people (auto workers), that SAY they're for smaller government and lower taxes, all the while GROWING government and taxes (AND stripping us of our Constitutional rights), are the very same people telling you it's okay to send our children off to die in the desert over excuses. Do the math...
Peace on Earth! (and I DO mean that!)
Jim |
Edited by - Mr. P-Body on 24 Dec 2008 08:13:16 AM |
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John-Henry
White Buffalo
USA
96 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2008 : 12:52:12 PM
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Jim,
Guess I'm not accustomed to the acceptable temperment of the new Gen Discussion board. A far cry from the ol' PSP.
One of the most irritating issues I contend with is the thought by many that somehow how I "blindly followed directives" and can't think outside the box, and because of such my views are skewed by government brainwashing. Quite honestly, its insulting. I could see action, then 50 minutes later watch it on CNN (which did actually happen). We weren't in a bubble while over there. We received the same news reports you got, but we had the added aspect of seeing it first hand. I can tell you that the reporters aren't trying to report the truth, they are trying to promote thier career, get that Pulizer that will launch thier career, so they over-sensationalize everything they can and report on nothing positive, 'cause it "doesn't sell".
As for the government lying about the war, I'm not that concerned about it. If you look throughout history, ALL of the wars we were involved in, with exceptions of the Revolutionary and WWII, where initiated with lies. The fact is Americans are a peace loving people that hate going to war. The population needs that push every so often to get involved.
Rather than Vietnam, we could also compare Iraq to Panama. It lacked 80% of American approval, Congress was angry at Teddy's choice, he was considered breaking the Constitution by doing so (even some calls for impeachment), and the local government (and the vast amount of World countries) completely protested to us being there... however we were there to better our, and concequentially the World's economy.
Reasons it is not like Vietnam:
1. Commanders on the ground make the decisions and do not have to wait for Washington approval.
2. Initiated by a call of War, not slow reluctant involvement with complete lack of direction.
3. All of Vietnam was dangerous, whereas only small pockets of areas hold a resistance
4. Our military in Iraq consists of an all volenteer force, not conscripted
5. In Vietnam all small factions belonged to one group trying to attain one goal, in Iraq the factions are splintered amoungst themselves
6. Troops come back better adjusted to civilian life and rotations are shorter having less issues than troops from Vietnam had, who were in war with over a year tour one day, and walking around thier hometown the next.
7. The majority of Iraqis do not back the guerrilla force. They may want us out, but they do not back the forces fighting us.
I could go on and on...
Iraq is Iraq and it is not Vietnam.
Are there problems? Hell yes. All those issues can be directly linked to Rumsfeld, without assumptions. He pulled troops out after collapse of the Bathe Party. We've been cleaning up that mess ever since, and I think finally have control of it after the surge. He put forth a policy that insurgents/terrorists didn't fall under the Geneva Convention and that we were free to interrigate however we wished, right or wrong this caused a huge issue with the American population.... since waging war in the US is largely a popularity contest, this has completely hurt the cause.
Talk to guys that have been in Iraq. See what they say. We saw our buddies die, had to clean up the mess. To assume we are brainwashed and can't think on our own insults us. We were baptized under fire, and see much clearer the issues because of it. At the very least, give a us a chance to explain what we saw and why we feel the way we do. Age doesn't make one wiser, experience does. |
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Phil
Great White Buffalo
3177 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2008 : 9:07:48 PM
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Jim, reading your post, I am reminded of a few lines from an old Jackson Browne song.
"...I want to know who the men in the shadows are
I want to hear somebody asking them why
They can be counted on to tell us who our enemies are
But theyre never the ones to fight or to die..."
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Bowties are for Peewee Herman |
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pete w
Cochise
USA
442 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2008 : 08:48:10 AM
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bush is a hero cause there have been no attacks since 9 11 01 . if you discount the shoe bomber that took out the plane over the Queens in new york just after 9 11. oh yea that was jet wash from a plane 5 miles away()
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Edited by - pete w on 26 Dec 2008 09:26:11 AM |
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Brian Baker
Mongo
USA
1045 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2008 : 8:29:27 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr. P-Body
Go back a few threads and read Baker's lack of response to another that challenges him to explain "what is a conservative". He can't. All he can do is vaguely point at Ronny Raygun and HIS view. Independent thought is not within Baker's ability.
Jim, I had plenty of replies in that thread...what pot were you smoking when I was replying? It must have been some good chit.
My brand of conservatism is right where Barry Goldwater's and Ronald Reagan's brand of conservatism was coming from. Nobody is going to post some liberal defined crap from Wikipedia about what conservatism is or is supposed to be, and say "which one are you?" and think they've got me cornered or trapped, Jim...sorry. |
Will Rogers never met a liberal. |
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rkellerjr
Cochise
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2008 : 08:57:54 AM
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That's NOT what I did Brian B. and you know that. I used Wikipedia to show that various forms of conservatism exist and asked you to give me a definition of your version of conservatism. So far you've refused to define what you believe except to name Reagan and Goldwater. That's like saying, ya my car is faster and better than yours but no, I'm not going to race you or put it on the track to see how fast it is.
If we look back at Reagan's administration, he cut taxes and he raised taxes, he was in charge of one of the biggest rises in U.S. debt from something like 500 billion to 3 trillion during his term. I'm sure your against some of that stuff so where do you sit? Tell us a bit about what you believe in terms of conservatism. |
Rich
1975 TA - http://www.78ta.com/gallery2/main.php/v/rkellerjr/
Video: http://www.zenonline.com/~rkeller/Videos/75showcar.wmv
"...I know that the Lord is always on the side of the right. But it is my constant anxiety and prayer that I and this nation should be on the Lord's side." - Abraham Lincoln |
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pete w
Cochise
USA
442 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2008 : 09:29:29 AM
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| when he couldn't figure out my joke about EIB applying for bailout money to supply hot air for Boone Picken's wind farm i lost all hope. some can only repeat propaganda and spout the EIB line not think for themselves |
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Brian Baker
Mongo
USA
1045 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2008 : 12:12:35 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by rkellerjr
That's NOT what I did Brian B. and you know that. I used Wikipedia to show that various forms of conservatism exist and asked you to give me a definition of your version of conservatism. So far you've refused to define what you believe except to name Reagan and Goldwater. That's like saying, ya my car is faster and better than yours but no, I'm not going to race you or put it on the track to see how fast it is.
If we look back at Reagan's administration, he cut taxes and he raised taxes, he was in charge of one of the biggest rises in U.S. debt from something like 500 billion to 3 trillion during his term. I'm sure your against some of that stuff so where do you sit? Tell us a bit about what you believe in terms of conservatism.
I thought I had made it clear. I don't have time to delve into a deep explanation of what conservatism is (and not what the various liberal derived redefined versions of it are as explained in Wikipedia).
Less government intrusion into my personal and business life...less taxes...no redistribution of taxes (ie - no entitlement programs..including Social Security). If we follow the original intent of the Constitution, we'll be there.
I don't have time to go over Reagsn's or Goldwater's speaches and principles. If you have the time, do some research...the information you will find is too lengthy to reprint on this website. |
Will Rogers never met a liberal. |
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Brian Baker
Mongo
USA
1045 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2008 : 12:14:43 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by pete w
when he couldn't figure out my joke about EIB applying for bailout money to supply hot air for Boone Picken's wind farm i lost all hope. some can only repeat propaganda and spout the EIB line not think for themselves
Pete...you are so full of chit. That was no joke on your part. If it was then you need to learn how to use a smilie...like this. Otherwise nobody can tell if you're being tongue in cheek, based on the other liberal positions you have taken here. |
Will Rogers never met a liberal. |
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pete w
Cochise
USA
442 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2008 : 2:59:46 PM
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i thought the hot air would be a give away . i guess you have to draw a picture for some people.
reagans speeches like when he said we were only selling spark plugs to Iran?
i don't believe Iv'e taken any liberal positions i just debunk right wing propaganda ( like obama can't be elected cause he's not a natural born citizen of the USA)if you use facts you have nothing to worry about |
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Brian Baker
Mongo
USA
1045 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2008 : 4:59:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by pete w
i thought the hot air would be a give away . i guess you have to draw a picture for some people.
reagans speeches like when he said we were only selling spark plugs to Iran?
i don't believe Iv'e taken any liberal positions i just debunk right wing propaganda ( like obama can't be elected cause he's not a natural born citizen of the USA)if you use facts you have nothing to worry about
I'm talking of his speaches from the 60's and early 70's.
We still have not seen an actual birth certificate for Obama, just a "certification of live birth". Know the difference, Pete. His Grand-Momma said she saw him born in Kenya...she lying? |
Will Rogers never met a liberal. |
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Phil
Great White Buffalo
3177 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2008 : 10:04:28 PM
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Maybe it was Kenya, Illinois.  |
Bowties are for Peewee Herman |
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pete w
Cochise
USA
442 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2008 : 12:26:26 AM
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you actually talked with his grandmother?
until you file suit to prevent obama from becoming president this argument is not going to fly. if the republician party thought there was a problem there would already be a case in court. this was just a right wing scare tactic to prevent people from voting for obama. it didn't work. |
Edited by - pete w on 27 Dec 2008 01:06:08 AM |
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rkellerjr
Cochise
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2008 : 10:01:08 AM
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If there is no problem or issue with Barack's citizen status to hold the office of the Presidency, then why does he hire lawyers to fight lawsuits that simply ask for proof of his citizenship status? Posting a questionable document to a friendly internet site isn't the answer. Also, the court in Philly asked for three documents, in the Berg case ...
# 1. a certified copy of Obamas vault (original long version) Birth Certificate;
# 2. a certified copy of Obamas Certificate of Citizenship; and
# 3. a certified copy of the Oath of Allegiance taken by Obama taken at the age of majority.
Obama ignored these requests.
I'm sorry, if your not hiding anything and people have concerns, you provide the necessary information and move on. Obama promised transparency and we already see that he is not following through. You can make up all of the excuses you want but the fact still stands, Obama is NOT providing the correct information to make this go away and worse, he's hiring lawyers to fight to keep these documents secret.
Here are some interesting facts surrounding his birth and citizenship. In the end, so far as I can tell with the facts that I have gathered, he is ineligible to become President. If someone can refute my findings, I'm certainly open to them. I'm also not a person who likes to hound a subject to death, I support our newly elected official regardless of political affiliation however, I believe the Constitution to be the authority to hold that office and whoever is getting ready to hold that office MUST meet those requirements. It is our duty as citizens to make sure we do not end up with a Constitutional crisis on our hands.
"When Barack Obama Jr. was born on Aug. 4,1961, in Honolulu, Kenya was a British colony, still part of the United Kingdom's dwindling empire. As a Kenyan native, Barack Obama Sr. was a British subject whose citizenship status was governed by The British Nationality Act of 1948. That same act governed the status of Obama Sr.'s children:
British Nationality Act of 1948 (Part II, Section 5): Subject to the provisions of this section, a person born after the commencement of this Act shall be a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies by descent if his father is a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies at the time of the birth.
In other words, at the time of his birth, Barack Obama Jr. was both a U.S. citizen (by virtue of being born in Hawaii) and a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies (or the UKC) by virtue of being born to a father who was a citizen of the UKC.
Obama's British citizenship was short-lived. On Dec. 12, 1963, Kenya formally gained its independence from the United Kingdom. Chapter VI, Section 87 of the Kenyan Constitution specifies that:
1. Every person who, having been born in Kenya, is on 11th December, 1963 a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies or a British protected person shall become a citizen of Kenya on 12th December, 1963...
2. Every person who, having been born outside Kenya, is on 11th December, 1963 a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies or a British protected person shall, if his father becomes, or would but for his death have become, a citizen of Kenya by virtue of subsection (1), become a citizen of Kenya on 12th December, 1963.
As a citizen of the UKC who was born in Kenya, Obama's father automatically received Kenyan citizenship via subsection (1). So given that Obama qualified for citizen of the UKC status at birth and given that Obama's father became a Kenyan citizen via subsection (1), it follows that Obama did in fact have Kenyan citizenship after 1963. So The Rocky Mountain News was at least partially correct.
But the paper failed to note that the Kenyan Constitution prohibits dual citizenship for adults. Kenya recognizes dual citizenship for children, but Kenya's Constitution specifies that at age 21, Kenyan citizens who possesses citizenship in more than one country automatically lose their Kenyan citizenship unless they formally renounce any non-Kenyan citizenship and swear an oath of allegiance to Kenya.
Since Sen. Obama has neither renounced his U.S. citizenship nor sworn an oath of allegiance to Kenya, his Kenyan citizenship automatically expired on Aug. 4,1982."
http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/does_barack_obama_have_kenyan_citizenship.html
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Rich
1975 TA - http://www.78ta.com/gallery2/main.php/v/rkellerjr/
Video: http://www.zenonline.com/~rkeller/Videos/75showcar.wmv
"...I know that the Lord is always on the side of the right. But it is my constant anxiety and prayer that I and this nation should be on the Lord's side." - Abraham Lincoln |
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Consititutional Convention - are we in crisis?
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