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C-lane
Tribal Scout

USA
16 Posts

Posted - 28 Jan 2019 :  3:07:10 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hello all! I'm new to the Pontiac community. Anyways, I just recently purchased a 67 tempest. first classic car that wasn't a ford. So I'm new to all things gm. The car came with a 389. I purchased a 1975 400 numbers are 500557 for 450 from a friend. The block is stock. The heads are off and are 6x-8 heads. They have had work on them but I don't know what. From my observation it looks like cleaned, new springs ect. But no real modifications that I can tell. Not sure how to tell if port or polished or milled for that matter. It did come with all new parts and gaskets. New starter, water pump, valve covers, oil pan and ect. I can always return to him if bad deal. But he said he had like a 1000 in heads so I thought it was a deal since the 389 is bone stock and in need of complete restore with no new parts or anything.
My question is what should I do if anything to this motor. I plan on putting rhodes original lifters in it and I thought about putting the 1.65 ratio rockers on it. It's just going to be a street car but I kinda want to be able to stomp it and have some torque. I also like a nice sounding idle.

C-lane
Tribal Scout

USA
16 Posts

Posted - 28 Jan 2019 :  3:18:41 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Or should I just install a cam?
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Steve C.
Chief PONTIAC

2016 Posts

Posted - 28 Jan 2019 :  3:26:26 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I would make efforts to find out more about the head work before any cam consideration. Combustion chamber cc's, installed height, springs used, especially if modified to accept the higher ratio rocker arms,etc.

Edited by - Steve C. on 28 Jan 2019 3:27:21 PM
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Bill Boyle
Horse Feathers (Charter Member)

USA
5264 Posts

Posted - 28 Jan 2019 :  4:22:24 PM  Show Profile  Visit Bill Boyle's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Since the heads are off, measure the volume of at least two chambers on each head. They could be 98cc or more if stock. If the heads were milled, they probably received at least a minimal clean up of .015". This would be a minimal decrease in cc and still keep you with a very low static compression.

As far as whether the heads were ported, look inside the ports, if they are shinny and clean, some kind of porting was performed. Since you paid only $450 for the engine, it's not likely the heads were ported. Having $1000 in the heads, according to your friend, is peanuts. When my iron #62 heads were significantly upgraded over stock, it cost twice that in 2003.

"Dedicated to keeping the classic Pontiac engine alive."

----
400 bored +.030, forged TRW pistons, ported 62 heads, Hedman headers, 2.5 SS dual exhaust X Pypes, Comp 276AH10 cam, Scorpion 1.65 RR, 850 Q-jet, stock intake & tuned HEI; original owner.
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Corncob2061
Cochise

USA
488 Posts

Posted - 28 Jan 2019 :  10:27:07 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sounds like a good deal. Any idea what cam is in the engine now? Jay
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beertracker
Cochise

433 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2019 :  11:43:48 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That engine and heads came with my LeMon . I ended up changing to milled 6x-4 heads and leaving the bottom end stock.

Do your pistons have a chamfered outside edge with four valve reliefs? If so they are OEM and will have a volume of -15cc. That combined with 6x-8 chamber volume will result in a CR of 7.6. This low CR will limit your cam selection. If you go with 1.65 rockers you will have to elongate the push rod holes otherwise the push rods will rub against the push rod wall.

The -15cc number came from http://psp.aquacomp.net/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1025 Read my post near the bottom of it.

To ID the cam look for a number or letters on the cam end. I bet it's a 066 or 067? Here is a Pontiac cam code chart; http://wallaceracing.com/camcode1.htm

bt


Edited by - beertracker on 29 Jan 2019 11:55:42 PM
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C-lane
Tribal Scout

USA
16 Posts

Posted - 31 Jan 2019 :  1:47:47 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ok and thanks a lot. When it comes to pontiac I know very little and what I do know has only been learnt in the past couple weeks. As for the cc's on the heads I will have to get back with you on that...it's -5 here and I don't much want to go outside lol. But after further investigation I have come to the conclusion that they have probably just been lightly milled for clean up (I can see the half circle etchings) they have not been ported in anyway. Probably just New valves, springs etc. So they are basically cleaned stock heads. I may just have them ported and gasket matched. Now being that I don't know much about how these motors perform I'm hoping one of you guys can give me input as to what to do. It's just a street car but still want some a** behind it. So should I put high ratio rockers? Just a cam? Swap parts out of the 389 into the 400 or vice versa...pistons ect. See I don't know what's the same or different on these motors or how to go about where to start. I'm not rich I'm a sole provider for a family of 4 but I can slowly dump 200 to 300 in it every so often. I'm in no rush...But I still have to restore the 67 tempest and buy and beef up a trany (servo piston and manual valve body) or convert to manual depending on total cost of each.
Really what I need is a plan of action and a parts list. So what would you do if you was me. I have the 75 400 block (bearings etc all look good) the rebuilt 6x8 heads all cleaned and repaired. All the shiny chrome valve covers, pans, alternator, water pump, gaskets and etc (sure that all interchanges). Then I have this 389 I want to say came out of a late 60's gto ( only say this because the guy I got it from got it from another guy who had gto's and the car came with a gto grill and what not think he was cloning it). I will have to report back next week with more specifics about the 389. Oh and stock intake I also plan on porting. So yeah what would you do given the options and not trying to break the bank.
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C-lane
Tribal Scout

USA
16 Posts

Posted - 31 Jan 2019 :  1:51:38 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
yes stock pistons it probably has the stock cam as well..lol I did notice it didn't have nylon teeth on the timing gears so I'm guessing someone got at least that far into it at one point
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C-lane
Tribal Scout

USA
16 Posts

Posted - 31 Jan 2019 :  1:54:29 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If the better performance choice is to elongate the pushed holes I will but if some other avenue arrives or a cam would be better performance wise than so be it. I will try to get more information this weekend on 389. Thank you for the insight.
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C-lane
Tribal Scout

USA
16 Posts

Posted - 31 Jan 2019 :  4:26:40 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So i measured two chambers on the heads with a syringe and oil and I got roughly 94/95/96 cc but like I said was using household stuff. I also have some pictures of the cam core code, piston head and the heads
https://www.imageshack.us/user/c-lane
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C-lane
Tribal Scout

USA
16 Posts

Posted - 31 Jan 2019 :  4:28:42 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/320xq90/r/924/Z6JlYd.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/320xq90/r/921/dqCo6a.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/320xq90/r/921/3d0jy4.jpg


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C-lane
Tribal Scout

USA
16 Posts

Posted - 31 Jan 2019 :  4:31:22 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/320xq90/r/924/UPRQDW.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/320xq90/r/921/Qrh4c5.jpg
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C-lane
Tribal Scout

USA
16 Posts

Posted - 31 Jan 2019 :  4:32:28 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/320xq90/r/921/aZrzYC.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/320xq90/r/921/AFazX8.jpg
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Corncob2061
Cochise

USA
488 Posts

Posted - 31 Jan 2019 :  9:00:57 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Looks like original pistons. Same as my 77 T/A. They are ok. Cam looks original looking, but can not tell much by a picture.

You are right, heads have been milled. Looks like they milled the intake surface too. Which means they could have dropped the cc range into the mid 90s like you measured. It is 2 cc for every .010 removed. Ports are stock.

It appears to have stock valve springs. The intake valves look like original OEM style valves. I can not tell if they were ground or just got new oem replacements. Kind of look like they were ground, appears they seat lower than the exhuast valve in the pics. They are probably 2 piece valves. If they are new and you do not get carried away with a big cam they are probably ok. I would replace them with one piece stainless ferrea valves, about 90 dollars. I can not tell on the exhuast valves, they look to me like they might not be oem type and are newer.

Were you planning on just running the short block as is, or are you going to rering it?

If you want it to run good a cam and valve spring change is a good place to start. That and a higher stall torque converter. Pick a cam that builds cylinder pressure, compression is going to be in the low 8 range. At that compression, on a budget, I would pick a nice stall converter over paying for port work.

What trans do you plan to run? Jay

Edited by - Corncob2061 on 31 Jan 2019 9:15:12 PM
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C-lane
Tribal Scout

USA
16 Posts

Posted - 01 Feb 2019 :  04:39:45 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thank you for your response lol been checking all day waiting to hear back from someone. Ok so here is what I'm thinkin and would love to hear what you think. New valve springs capable of holding the high ratio rockers. Haven't done much research on valve springs so don't know much on size and all that. Replace intake valve to one piece like you advised. The exhaust valve do don't have the button looking park in the center so I think they are not stock style. I work in a shop so I will be porting myself. I will also grind to fit push rods for high ratio rockers. I do believe that the rings and bearings looked good I took one cap off and not much wear. I will run stock ported intake. I plan on putting on one of them head gaskets on the raise the compression. Never have done that so advice on size would be good. As for the cam I have read that them comp high energy cams are a good choice for the low compression bc they keep exhaust gases in longer.
As for trans I have not researched anything on gm so I don't know. I would of course change servo pistons and springs and install reverse manual valve body and stall. But after all that would it be cheaper or just as much to convert to manual? Oh I also intended to put Rhoads original or super lube lifters in. And I think that's about all I plan on doing. Sound like a decent build? Or should I put money into the 389 as opposed to the 75 400
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Corncob2061
Cochise

USA
488 Posts

Posted - 01 Feb 2019 :  08:55:47 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It would be nice to know what all the 389 needed. What year it was, which heads it has, etc. If it came from a GTO some of the parts on that engine could be valuable.

GM 3 speed autos do fine with just a shift kit for the street. Not a big deal at all. Does the car have a 3 speed auto in it? You can look at the oil pan and easily tell. I only ask because many 67 lemans had 2 speed trans and highway gears from the factory.

Sounds like you have the right ideas on things. Thats great if you can do your own porting. The hi energy cams would like 1.65 rockers. Rhoads like the bigger rockers too, it will give them a little more action. Jay


Edited by - Corncob2061 on 01 Feb 2019 09:13:06 AM
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C-lane
Tribal Scout

USA
16 Posts

Posted - 01 Feb 2019 :  09:15:11 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I will try and get specs from the 389 today. I work thirds so when I get off is about the only day light I get and it's been cold. Yeah I haven't messed with 400 because I need to get info on 389.
It doesn't have a trans In it. So that'll be my next step after engine. Can you put chevy transmissions on pontiac engines? That'd be nice because I'm sure those parts would be cheaper. I like a reverse manual valve body. I prefer to be in control over my shifts. I wonder what manual trans you could swap into one of these? Do you happen to know what size head gasket I could get away with using to increase compression on 400?
Yeah the porting shouldn't be nothing I got to take apart these heads anyways. Shame to take apart a rebuilt head but maybe that 389 has heads I can rebuild instead.
Pretty much the 289,302,351 and a few small block mopars really familiar with the 904 and 727 tranys. And a few Ford's.
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Corncob2061
Cochise

USA
488 Posts

Posted - 01 Feb 2019 :  09:34:01 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I run the reverse valve bodies in 727 mopars on the street. You can by an adapter kit to put a Chevy trans in the car. Pontiac Trans is not that hard to find yet though. I suppose it depends where your at.

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Corncob2061
Cochise

USA
488 Posts

Posted - 01 Feb 2019 :  11:19:12 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
No advantage using a Chevy trans over on for a Pontiac price wise. The turbo 400s and turbo 350s are pretty much the same inside and take the same upgrades. If your starting from scratch you might want to look into a 200r4 overdrive tranny. If you can rebuild it yourself it is a pretty cheap upgrade. Then you get a low first gear and overdrive.

Most all the parts are made aftermarket now to for manual trans swaps. Not a big deal if you decide to go that route.
Jay
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Corncob2061
Cochise

USA
488 Posts

Posted - 01 Feb 2019 :  12:19:47 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The thinnest head gasket is Cometic with a .027 thick head gasket. But it takes a really fine finish on the head and block surface. Felpro makes a .039 performance gasket, most of the others are .045. No cheap options for thin head gaskets. The 400 block you are looking at the pistons are usually .015 down in the deck. Pontiac had pretty consistent machining in that era from what I have seen, I would expect it to be close to .015. So to get .040 quench, the .027 cometic is about as thin as you can run with that piston.

Sounds like you have a mixed car back ground like me. Jay

Edited by - Corncob2061 on 01 Feb 2019 12:20:59 PM
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C-lane
Tribal Scout

USA
16 Posts

Posted - 01 Feb 2019 :  4:27:53 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ok I will look into that on the trans. I'd say I'll go automatic and the 4 speed...even more so if I put a reverse valve body. Plus I'm all about that low first year lol what years did they make this motor for. So the part for that trans will be the same price as chevy? As of so far in life I have had mopar which parts cost outrageous and now Pontiac that also cost outrageous. So it's be nice to get chevy prices on trany guys lol.
So maybe good news maybe not I'm not sure...certainly got more to think about that is for sure. I went to the garage today and looked at the numbers on the 389. Where the dizzy goes these number are stamped 196(maybe a 0 after that) then 9778789 (or 8778789). The heads have a 016 or a 019 stamped on the outside cent of the head. Bout all I could fine on the heads.
You know I love all old cars and appreciate the history and style. I don't know how some people can be so biased against one of the other. I mean motor wise and stuff sure but body style certainly not
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C-lane
Tribal Scout

USA
16 Posts

Posted - 01 Feb 2019 :  4:33:24 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Maybe the heads also have a 45 pm them..wasn't many number.on it. The combustion chamber look completely different. Now if this block and heads are better what should I do with 400 and heads. Return to friend for 450? Is the new chrome oil pan, valve covers gaskets starter and all that worth the 450 and does the stuff interchange
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Corncob2061
Cochise

USA
488 Posts

Posted - 01 Feb 2019 :  5:29:50 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Is there a code on the passenger side front of the engine should be 2 letters, stamped on the surface below the heads. That will tell what car it came from, hp, and transmission. Here is a reference photo.
http://www.pontiacpower.net/numbers/

Not sure if it is a 66 or 65 389. I am guessing it is a 65. The 65 has a number on the end exhuast port, the 66 have the head casting identification on the top of the center exhuast ports, same place the other heads say 6x. Probably 092 or 093 if it is a 1966. Not sure what 016 is.

Most all the parts interchange, but the 6x are far superior heads with hardened seats. The 389 has 1.92 intake valves, versus the 6x and the 2.11, and the valve inclination angle is different, so the pistons have the valve releifs in a different spot on a 389 versus a 400. Takes a good sized cam to make that a problem though. All the parts bolt and interchange between both engines. 389 is a much heavy block than that year of 400. That 400 would work for what your doing. Me, I would use the 400 unless the 389 has new parts inside. Jay


Edited by - Corncob2061 on 01 Feb 2019 6:16:48 PM
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Corncob2061
Cochise

USA
488 Posts

Posted - 01 Feb 2019 :  5:44:15 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Here is a link to help identify the heads

http://www.wallaceracing.com/head1.htm

Here is were the head code is located in the 65 engines.
https://www.hemmings.com/parts/item/Engine/Cylinder-Heads/1965-GTO-77-heads/15807.html

Edited by - Corncob2061 on 01 Feb 2019 6:14:54 PM
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tjs44
Crazy Horse

USA
613 Posts

Posted - 01 Feb 2019 :  7:29:56 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Those pistons look like 400 pistons?The valve reliefs are more to the center of the piston as I remember in 389-421s?Tom
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tjs44
Crazy Horse

USA
613 Posts

Posted - 01 Feb 2019 :  7:41:47 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Just looked in Petes book,for sure not 389 pistons?Tom
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beertracker
Cochise

433 Posts

Posted - 01 Feb 2019 :  7:44:47 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't think any one has mentionted the 500557 block is a light weight version of the 400 block and not as strong as earlier 400 blocks. Pontiac reduced material around the saddles to save weight and probably cost. My point is if you plan to build a race engine, stroke it or feed it nitrous it's not good block to use. As a daily driver it will be fine. I don't know how much hp you can get out of this block before cracks develop. Just something to consider.

The 389 block would be stronger than the 500557 block and it can be over bored to 400. I am not sure how big you can take a 389 block to?

If you get the CR to around 9 take a look at this cam: http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=2355 Check with GTOFREEK over on Maxperformance.com. He is a Lunati Voodoo guy. bt
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C-lane
Tribal Scout

USA
16 Posts

Posted - 01 Feb 2019 :  8:59:39 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Jay I looked for a number stamped on passenger side motor when I was over there today but I couldn't see one. Probably need to clean it up to see.well that number that I said was a 016 or 019 was in the center of the exhaust port but like I said looked like a 016. I'll figure that later considering they are the lesser of the two. Maybe be I'll clean email up and port em etc at a later date sell them or trade them
Well the 389 has the crank out cam out and pretty much hollow. I have all the parts they just ain't in. The 400 has crank, pistons and cam in. The 400 looks like it has less wear in my opinion. Crank don't need cleaned up that for sure. All the 389 stuff has been out awhile. But which would perform better with the 6x heads and better compression ratio? Which stock intake would be better? Any advantage to swapping around cranks and cams on either motor. I have that Rocky rottela book but still have so many questions lol. I don't want a race engine but I'd like to make the most of what I got with top end upgrades...cam etc.
Tom the pistons in the 400 that are in the picture do have the valve relief in the center. But that 389 also had valve reliefs in almost the same location but the reliefs looked a good size smaller like a good bit but other than that yeah they're very similar

Beertracker I couldn't agree with you more that the 389 is much stronger. Probably a much better build than the smog era stuff...But unfortunately I don't have the cash to bore anything out. And I really just want a street car but also utilizing the stuff I have to make it perform well. I had a 68 torino with a 302 and a three on the tree loved to drive it. I also had a 90`s mustang 302 5 speed bored 30 over and it was a bit to much. I have never been big on the boring stuff out... I have always been a top end man. I guess I just never had a reason to go that big. I never go to the strip or anything never even been to one. Plus I can barely afford top end lol. I do all my own body work, painting, porting, fabrication, sewing interior. I can afford 200 to 300$things a month but over that I can't justify the need for the speed for cost of the speed...
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tjs44
Crazy Horse

USA
613 Posts

Posted - 01 Feb 2019 :  9:29:16 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The pistons in the block IS the 400 block and pistons?Post a pic of the 389 piston please.The pockets should be way closer to the center.16 heads are not 389 heads.Post a pic of the studs and springs of the what you think are 389 please.TomTom
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C-lane
Tribal Scout

USA
16 Posts

Posted - 01 Feb 2019 :  10:09:19 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Oh sorry I didn't understand. Yes the pistons on the 389 have narrow oval cut/groves in the piston. The on in the pictures is of my 400' the ones in the picture have the same shape oval groves as the 389 but the oval is much wider on the piston in the 400. Basically looks like the 400 pistons are groved for the 2.0(something) intake valve that the 400 has...And the 389 groves for valve relief are basically shaped for them littler valves that I seen in them heads that came with 389. Makes sense...unfortunately I can't get pictures tonight I'm at work. But the heads that came with the 389 have a way less looking cc combustion chamber. In my opinion I'd say the motors are bone stock. I don't know why I seen a 016 on the exhaust port of the head for the 389 but I'm pretty sure but I may be wrong. Either way I think I'll stick with the 6x heads even though they are so low compression I feel like they'd flow better and have more work done to them.
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C-lane
Tribal Scout

USA
16 Posts

Posted - 01 Feb 2019 :  10:13:17 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
But for some reason he gave me a brass piece of flat iron when I bought the car saying I'd need that to make it run. He didn't know why He was just relayed the message he got from previous owner when he bought it. I'll get pics tomorrow
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Corncob2061
Cochise

USA
488 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2019 :  01:52:59 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Some trans options to look at, for ideas on what is out there.

Used 200r4 $295

www.ebay.com%25252Fi%25252F283338117602%25253Fchn%25253Dps%2526itemid%253D283338117602%2526targetid%253D475515323941%2526device%253Dm%2526adtype%253Dpla%2526googleloc%253D9024688%2526poi%253D%2526campaignid%253D1482101415%2526adgroupid%253D56517111839%2526rlsatarget%253Dpla-475515323941%2526abcId%253D1139296%2526merchantid%253D8335614%2526gclid%253DEAIaIQobChMIxIa7qK6c4AIVlMDICh08ow5EEAQYASABEgKl7PD_BwE%2526srcrot%253D711-117182-37290-0%2526rvr_id%253D1842713382764%2526rvr_ts%253Dacc5fe051680a88b4e512886fffc2e3e" target="_blank">https://www.ebay.com/i/283338117602?chn=ps&ul_ref=https%253A%252F%252Frover.ebay.com%252Frover%252F1%252F711-117182-37290-0%252F2%253Fmpre%253Dhttps%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.ebay.com%25252Fi%25252F283338117602%25253Fchn%25253Dps%2526itemid%253D283338117602%2526targetid%253D475515323941%2526device%253Dm%2526adtype%253Dpla%2526googleloc%253D9024688%2526poi%253D%2526campaignid%253D1482101415%2526adgroupid%253D56517111839%2526rlsatarget%253Dpla-475515323941%2526abcId%253D1139296%2526merchantid%253D8335614%2526gclid%253DEAIaIQobChMIxIa7qK6c4AIVlMDICh08ow5EEAQYASABEgKl7PD_BwE%2526srcrot%253D711-117182-37290-0%2526rvr_id%253D1842713382764%2526rvr_ts%253Dacc5fe051680a88b4e512886fffc2e3e

Manual valve body for a 200r4 $281

https://www.jegs.com/i/TCI/890/386010/10002/-1?CAWELAID=1710579828&CAGPSPN=pla&CAAGID=58495024003&CATCI=aud-300525381299:pla-550733749375&CATARGETID=230006180041391816&CADevice=m&jegspromo=nonbrand&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIh-7D1q2c4AIVEUwNCh02_AOuEAQYASABEgIbefD_BwE

Edited by - Corncob2061 on 02 Feb 2019 02:08:43 AM
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beertracker
Cochise

433 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2019 :  7:35:07 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If you are using a Qjet it will probably need a Cliff recipe performed on it. You can do this your self if you have his Qjet book. Would also modify the distributor advance curve. bt

Edited by - beertracker on 03 Feb 2019 12:21:01 AM
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