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 Oil at the rockers
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egreen
Tribal Scout

USA
6 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2018 :  11:00:17 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have recently finished a 455 build and I have some problems getting oil to the top end.
I don't get oil all the way to the rockers when priming. I saw a tiny seep at a few rockers after running the drill until it smoked. I really expected oil to squirt out the pushrods. I worked up the nerve to start it anyway and it ran great but I shut it down after 1-2 minutes because I still didn't have oil to the rockers.
Progressing through the troubleshooting I have confirmed that the oil gallery has pressure. I installed a guage at the top oil plug next to the distributor and I'm seeing over 60 psi.
Couple questions.
1. How long should it take to get oil to the top?
2. How long can I let it run waiting for oil to show at the rockers?
3. I used the drilled hidden oil gallery plug as is commonly practiced. I can see a jet of oil from the hole when priming. Could this be bleeding off enough pressure that it slows the oil travel up the pushrods?

The build details:
1973 455 - re-polished crank, forged pistons and Eagle rods, XE268 cam/lifters, standard oil pump.
#96 heads - home-ported, new valves, guides, springs, retainers, seals, roller-tip rockers.

Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

Blued and Painted
Chief PONTIAC

USA
3503 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2018 :  11:57:51 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The hole in the back galley plug should be around .030..
The Welch plug on the drivers front oil galley could have popped out if not staked correctly.
Miss match standard crank bearings on a turned crank. Plasti gauge is a good quick check to see if your in the ball park.
Chevy lifters with low oil band installed.
Not being involved on the build, items above are a shot in the dark, no hands on Internet possibilities.

You should see the lifter/pushrods/rockers firm up and trickle oil across the rocker while turning the oil pump counter clock wise.
On start up, the lifter clatter should go away almost instantly. 5 seconds or less.




Bull Nose Formula/ 461/ Q-Jet/
TH400/ 3.08 8.5 / R44TS.

Edited by - Blued and Painted on 02 Feb 2018 12:09:44 PM
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Bill Boyle
Horse Feathers (Charter Member)

USA
5010 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2018 :  12:08:12 PM  Show Profile  Visit Bill Boyle's Homepage  Reply with Quote
It's hard to determine whether your engine is flowing oil properly or not.

You posed a good question: "I can see a jet of oil from the hole when priming. Could this be bleeding off enough pressure that it slows the oil travel up the pushrods?"

In my opinion, it is possible. However, I have to ask:

What oil pressure are you seeing at start up, and what is the oil's viscosity? When the engine is started is the valve train noisy or quiet? If it was noisy did it quiet down within the first minute or so?

How did you adjust lash? What procedure was used?

"Dedicated to keeping the classic Pontiac engine alive."

----
400 bored +.030, forged TRW pistons, ported 62 heads, Hedman headers, 2.5 SS dual exhaust X Pypes, Comp 276AH10 cam, Scorpion 1.65 RR, 850 Q-jet, stock intake & tuned HEI; original owner.
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egreen
Tribal Scout

USA
6 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2018 :  1:04:23 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Here are answers to your questions.
The rear oil plug is 0.030". I bought it that way from Butler.
I checked the front plugs. I removed the fuel pump and inserted a metal rod across the front of the timing cover, then ran the priming drill. The metal rod came out dry. It would have been soaked if the front plugs popped.
I did plastiguage the bearings with no indication of a problem. The crank was polished at the machine shop and standard bearings were used.
I think I remember checking the lifters against my old ones but I'm not sure. I did find the Comp Cam box it came in and it said Oldsmobile/Pontiac on it.
The oil pressure is over 60psi. I checked in 2 places, oil filter and the top gallery plug near the dist. Same result. The top gallery plug is right at the first lifter so my lifters are getting pressure.
I'm using 30W break-in oil.
There was zero lifter noise upon start-up. No knocks, taps, metal noises, exhaust leaks. I was running at 2500 RPM for break-in.
I tightened the off-lobe rockers until I could feel a slight resistance to spinning the pushrod and added 1/2 turn.

I took off a rocker (#4 exh?), ran the drill and saw a slight seep of oil out the top of the lifter. I did not check clearance at the lifter bores.
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tjs44
Cochise

USA
461 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2018 :  8:58:18 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Did you turn the engine over a couple times?The lifters get oil a diff spots.When I did my engine I had it a TDC,primed it,made a 1/4 rotation,primed,another 1/4 rotation,primed etc.After 2 full rotations I had oil at all the rockers.Tom
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Blued and Painted
Chief PONTIAC

USA
3503 Posts

Posted - 03 Feb 2018 :  11:57:19 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Are they restricted pushrods or restrictors installed at the lifter bore.

Thinking out loud only
if the front galley plugs are pushed in too far, there would be oil on driver side only.
If there is no oil to the rockers, the ends of pushrods and rocker seats may already be Blued and Gaulded. Yes/No?




Bull Nose Formula/ 461/ Q-Jet/
TH400/ 3.08 8.5 / R44TS.
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Steve C.
Crazy Horse

1757 Posts

Posted - 03 Feb 2018 :  12:54:15 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
For interest, I think this is related to Tom's good comment about turning the engine over.

I understand the issue here is probably with a hydraulic lifter and with its different type of oiling than a solid lifter. But here is a Video with Crower solid roller lifters in conjunction with a cam that when on the base circle the lifters edge orifice oiling hole is not exposed to the oil band. Until the lifters start to move upward the HIPPO oiling hole located within the oil band does not get 100 percent oiling. I believe on a hydraulic lifter IF in a similar situation with the oil band no oil will go up thru the pushrods before a moment of lfter travel upwards.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoU_hUgq4O0&app=desktop

Edited by - Steve C. on 03 Feb 2018 1:30:29 PM
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tjs44
Cochise

USA
461 Posts

Posted - 03 Feb 2018 :  1:42:03 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
if you prime a engine with the valley cover off it is amazing to me how much oil goes around the lifters.Like I said 1/4 turn the engine for a couple rotations and you should be good to go.Tom
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5415 Posts

Posted - 04 Feb 2018 :  12:34:13 PM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
He did say he ran it for 1-2 minutes. He should be getting decent oil at the top while running.
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egreen
Tribal Scout

USA
6 Posts

Posted - 04 Feb 2018 :  4:38:21 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I do have oil at both sides and the pushrods are not blued or galled. I still had assembly lube at the tops of the pushrods.
The pushrods are new stock replacement rods.
I think my next step may be to put it back together, prime it while turning the engine over and give is another go. I'll run it a little longer using an oil can to oil the rockers. If I don't get oil after a few minutes I'll probably take off the valley cover and have a look.
In the meantime I'm gonna soak up as much information as possible on how a hydraulic lifter works and everything I can find on valve lash adjustment.
Comp Cams said to soak the lifters in mineral spirits, blow them dry and install as is. I didn't soak them but I did give them a dunk & slosh in the mineral sprits. Maybe I'll take them out and try again. Or, maybe try different lifters.
Thanks to everybody for the posts. I'll report what I find.
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tjs44
Cochise

USA
461 Posts

Posted - 04 Feb 2018 :  8:19:51 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
FYI,I always pour a little STP in the rockers.Oil will wash it out.Tom
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5415 Posts

Posted - 04 Feb 2018 :  8:26:35 PM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I doubt it's the mineral spirits, that's more to get gunk, packing lube off. When it was running was oil oozing out or running out of the pushrods/rockers?
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egreen
Tribal Scout

USA
6 Posts

Posted - 05 Feb 2018 :  8:53:12 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
There was no oil at all to the top of the pushrods while running.
I got a chance to try priming while rotating the crank. I did see a seep at one of the rockers after running the drill for a few minutes while rotating. There may be hope after all.
I want to try running it again. Do I need to remove the valley cover to re-apply cam lube at this point? I'm sure the lube has been wiped off by now.


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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5415 Posts

Posted - 06 Feb 2018 :  09:22:47 AM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The lube is pretty durable, i find it sticking around well after break in. Personally i wouldn't worry about it IF I SAW GOOD OIL UP TOP and would just break it in, but everyone has different levels of worry.
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Lee
Sitting Bull

167 Posts

Posted - 06 Feb 2018 :  3:10:09 PM  Show Profile  Visit Lee's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Have somebody rotate the crank, as you are priming. The end of the pushrod will rock inside the cup, and the oil will squirt when the pushrod opening lines up with the hole in the rocker arm, but the oil flow will be blocked when they are not aligned.

You'll be surprised at how far the oil squirts, so be prepared.

CURRENT: '73 T/A clone, starting to get less boring!...
67 Firebird (sold) 11.27 @ 119.6 Feb. '05 issue HPP
69 Falcon wagon, 10.51 @ 130mph Feb. '10 issue PHR (sold)
72 Cutlass Convertible, first car, owned since '82, now with a 6.0 LS, mild, putting just under 400 hp/tq to the wheels.
www.LNLPD.com
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egreen
Tribal Scout

USA
6 Posts

Posted - 07 Feb 2018 :  8:02:52 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Good news, bad news. Mostly bad. After running the motor for 2-3 minutes I got a few of the rockers to show oil so I figured it was just slow and put the valve covers on to go ahead and break in the cam. About 5 minutes after re-starting I noticed the drivers side exhaust was smoking pretty bad. I shut it down and saw oil seeping from the head bolt between the #3 & #5 exhaust ports.
Time to pull the heads, I guess. How would oil show at the head bolt? Head gasket? Does oil actually flow through the heads? I thought it was just coolant.
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egreen
Tribal Scout

USA
6 Posts

Posted - 07 Feb 2018 :  8:29:27 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The oil on the head bolt makes no sense. I must have spilled it or something.
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5415 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2018 :  09:14:02 AM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Honestly sounds like a leaky valve cover gasket. Clean oil is hard to spot when it's thin, it runs down and pools around the bolt.
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Miles
Cochise

Canada
209 Posts

Posted - 18 May 2018 :  08:25:09 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
egreen, What is the status of your oiling now?
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