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Miles
Sitting Bull

Canada
154 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2017 :  12:15:10 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I notice there are a lot of engines with a volume of around 463 cid. and a static compression ratio of around 10-11:1. I've also noticed a lot of them run a camshaft with a duration in the vicinity of 236-245. I wonder what cranking cylinder pressures these engines have and how they manage to avoid detonation? I can see those CRs with a larger camshaft.
My cold cranking pressure is 210 psi, and yes I get detonation, with a 10.49 static compression ratio.

As a side thought, how streetable is a 242/249ish camshaft in a 463 with 10-11:1 CR?

Steve C.
Crazy Horse

1691 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2017 :  1:08:12 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The amount of duration at .050" is not the deciding factor.

This will be of interest.....

Often stated: A lot of overlap kills low speed cylinder pressure.

This is largely untrue,and unfortunately it gets repeated waaayyy too often.

Especially when it comes up in a discussion relating to DCR theory and such.

Yes,overlap does affect the low speed intake tract vacuum (carb signal) sure enough,but that does'nt also directly affect the low speed cylinder pressure,the low speed cylinder pressure is mosty a strict derivative of the cams intake closing event timing,and not it's overlap.

See,it's easy enough to come up with a cam that has a whole bunch of overlap,yet that cam can (and will) often crank out overall higher cylinder pressures in a given combo.

I say this as I've seen plenty of "large" overlap cams crank out well over 200 psi cranking compression.

Now if what you said were indeed 100% true,that would'nt ever be possible.

So before this turns into some huge debate,just go ahead and go look at any of the DCR calculators out there and just see for yourself how many ask for information about what the combos overlap numbers are.

And understand that a late IC event does'nt necessarily always = more overlap.

Sure a later IC event can (at times) mean a cam may have more overlap,but it wont always mean such.

Lots of things affect both those areas of a cam.

But only the seat/advertised IC event timing should be used to determine the DCR.

Source: screamingchief
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=679904&highlight=cranking+pressure

Old related post, but again more relevant information presented by screamingchief:

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=629498&highlight=cranking+pressure

.


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Steve C.
Crazy Horse

1691 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2017 :  1:19:41 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"As a side thought, how streetable is a 242/249ish camshaft in a 463 with 10-11:1 CR?"

Much will depend on the camshaft profile involved. Example, for the most part a solid roller cam with the same .050 duration as a hydraulic flat tappet cam will be 'more streetable'.
At least that's my opinion based on my previous experience. But I'm not meaning a detonation situation. That said, also comparing the two with the same .050 duration is not apples-to-apples.

Or are you meaning 'streetable' regarding the potential for detonation?



.

Edited by - Steve C. on 29 Oct 2017 1:29:16 PM
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Miles
Sitting Bull

Canada
154 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2017 :  1:37:45 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well I wasn't thinking about overlap at all just the intake closing point.
After reading the article about the tests on the spintron machine I can see where the two types of lifter differ in respect to duration at the valve.
I've run my specs in those ccp calculators and get a way lower number than mine actually is.
Reading Cliffs answer in the octane topic you posted , he gets 170 psi with the same heads and cam I have and mine is 210. and he runs 87/89 with no detonation and I get detonation with the best gas I can buy. Which is crap compared to the leaded stuff I used to pay 25 cents a gallon for.
I have to change my lifters and camshaft anyway so thought I would try to deal with the high pressure with a later Intake closing point. Would still like a camshaft that I can drive on the street with.

I'll have to read the rest of what screaming chief says tomorrow. He does have some good insight.
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Steve C.
Crazy Horse

1691 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2017 :  2:00:50 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
When you see specific compression numbers touted consideration should be given to the chamber design involved. Typicaly a 'heart shaped' combustion chamber will tolerate a higher compression.

"The design of the combustion chamber influences the performance of the engine and its anti-knock properties. The layout and shape of the combustion chamber has a bearing on the thermal efficiency and performance as well."

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Steve C.
Crazy Horse

1691 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2017 :  2:07:46 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Also if you are using a Dynamic Compression Ratio Calculator for interest make sure your input is based on seat timing and not events at the .050 duration.

.
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Steve C.
Crazy Horse

1691 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2017 :  2:20:44 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"Big cams with more duration and overlap allow octane-limited engines to run higher compression without detonating in the low- to mid-range"

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/ccrp-9812-secrets-of-camshaft-power/

Same thing with overlap calculators, use seat duration and not .050 duration.


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tjs44
Cochise

USA
422 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2017 :  8:22:06 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Guys,this has been discussed for EVER.Here is my take after building a ton of HiPo pump gas street engines.We have for the last 70 some years put in bigger cams to make more HP.HP comes a lot from cyc pressure.And we find that big cams bleed off cyc pressure at cranking RPMs.The only deal is we DONT drive our cars at cranking RPMs.That is why we have all read and heard about the silent killer,detonation that cant be heard.I have found with iron heads and our Calif 91 pump gas that if my engines pump much more than 180-185 they are at risk.I built a 455 with TRUE 9.5 CR and with a 2801 cam the damn thing pumped 200 and we had to mix race gas to drive it.I always wanted to pull the front cover and retard it a couple degrees and see what it would do.I just did a cam change on the 455 engine that is now in my 69 bird.When first built the engine had a 228-230ish hyd roller on a 110 and it pumped 180 when built.Drove fine on our 91 gas.A few years later (last summer) I replaced the cam with the new SP II hyd roller on a 112.It was put in at 106 which is what Dave and Comp said to do.It pumped 195 on all cyc on the dyno.Not liking what I saw I asked Joe Sherman to pull the front cover and retard the cam a touch.As I remember it was now in at 109 and now pumped 180-185.I drive the car a lot,have had no issue with detonation I could hear.Also the engine ended up making more HP when we did the retard.FWIW,Tom
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Steve C.
Crazy Horse

1691 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2017 :  8:59:23 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Personally I'm a firm believer of not pushing the compression envelope on a street car with pump gas. This for engines leaving a shop to be used under all types of driving conditions, unknown gas quality, and not knowing how the end customer would tune and operate the combination.

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Miles
Sitting Bull

Canada
154 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2017 :  10:15:01 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
No, don't mean streetable in regards to detonation but in respet to being able to idle and have low rpm performance. I know some guys that have put in large cams and like the top end performance but the engines are dogs at anything below 3500rpm.
SP II? Is that another version of Dave's Stump puller? If so what is the difference from the original SP?
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Steve C.
Crazy Horse

1691 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2017 :  10:59:00 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The first cam he called 'Stump Puller' was first ordered with grind number P8 3111B/3122B HR112+5
286/289
230/236
.3770/.3800 lobe lift
112 lobe separation

I've seen the second one, refered to as the revised Stump Puller, ordered with grind number P8 3194/3196 HR112+5
281/287
230/236
.3890/.3910 lobe lift
112 lobe separation

Both could be purchased from SD Performance or direct from Comp Cams.
The lobes are listed here:
http://www.compcams.com/Technical/Catalogs/CamLobeMasterCatalog.pdf

Nothing special, a hydraulic roller cam ordered with those specific lobe numbers as a custom cam with a 112 lobe separation.

A good cam for a truck motor combination :)

.

Edited by - Steve C. on 30 Oct 2017 11:01:17 AM
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Steve C.
Crazy Horse

1691 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2017 :  11:10:15 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Asked- "As a side thought, how streetable is a 242/249ish camshaft in a 463 with 10-11:1 CR?"

Here is one example of a friends car with a 242 degree solid roller cam. Very street friendly...

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0804phr-bob-davis-64-pontiac-tempest-custom/

Myself personally, my previous street pump gas combination with a 254 degree solid roller cam....

I'll assure you it was no dog below 3500 rpm !

http://www.pontiacstreetperformance.com/psp/rebuild455sc2003.html

Later for interest I changed to a smaller 248 degree solid roller cam in that engine, so tame it was a pussy cat :)

Since you are interested in using a solid roller cam here are other street cars from this website using solid roller cams....

http://www.pontiacstreetperformance.com/psp/rebuild461RG.html

http://www.pontiacstreetperformance.com/psp/rebuild461DS.html

http://www.pontiacstreetperformance.com/psp/rebuild428TW.html

And I suspect there are others lurking here that have used solid roller cams.
.


Edited by - Steve C. on 30 Oct 2017 11:51:52 AM
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Miles
Sitting Bull

Canada
154 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2017 :  6:24:54 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hmm, shorter at 0.006 duration and the same 0.050 duration and more lift. I wonder why he switched?
That tempest is a nice looking car. Short block, head flow and chamber size close to about the same as my build.
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Steve C.
Crazy Horse

1691 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2017 :  6:40:14 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Advertised duration:
286/289
281/287

"When comparing two different cams, if both profiles rate the advertised duration at the same lift, the cam with the shorter advertised duration in comparison to the 0.050 duration has more aggressive ramp. Providing it maintains stable valve motion, the aggressive profile yields better vacuum, increased responsiveness, a broader torque range, and other driveability improvements because it effectively has the opening and closing points of a smaller cam combined with the area under the lift curve of a larger cam."

Billy Godbold at Competition Cams

Lobe lift:
.3770/.3800
.3890/.3910

"If you want to build a street motor with the most power without a sacrifice of idle and low speed qualities, then lift is the most important factor to maximize, not duration. The best street cams are those that seek to maximize valve lift while only adding a minimal amount of duration."

David Vizard
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Edited by - Steve C. on 30 Oct 2017 6:46:25 PM
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ta man
Two Feathers

Canada
33 Posts

Posted - 21 Nov 2017 :  08:51:18 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My new engine at 100 miles..is 185 for cranking compression,10.75 to 1 KRE heads can run on 87 octane.

1980 Trans Am
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ta man
Two Feathers

Canada
33 Posts

Posted - 21 Nov 2017 :  12:20:39 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Aluminum.....600hp approx...will idle down to 800rpm

1980 Trans Am
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ta man
Two Feathers

Canada
33 Posts

Posted - 21 Nov 2017 :  12:23:37 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If you want to build a street motor with the most power without a sacrifice of idle and low speed qualities, then lift is the most important factor to maximize, not duration. The best street cams are those that seek to maximize valve lift while only adding a minimal amount of duration."

David Vizard

As Steve quoted above..mine is an example...relatively mild duration but higher lifts are utilized..it works pretty well.

1980 Trans Am
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Miles
Sitting Bull

Canada
154 Posts

Posted - 22 Nov 2017 :  08:07:59 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
ta man, You have KRE heads and 10.75 CR, what are the rest of the specs of your build, if you don't mind me asking? I'd like to compare them to my KRE 10.49:1 428 build that has 210 psi cranking pressure and can't run on 91 octane.
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ta man
Two Feathers

Canada
33 Posts

Posted - 23 Nov 2017 :  1:13:39 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
466 zero deck,79 cc "SD" KRE heads,SD's OF 2.0 hyd roller cam 236/246 @.050 .391 and .400 lobe lift 1.65 HS rockers

1980 Trans Am
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Phil
The Great White Buffalo

USA
7228 Posts

Posted - 23 Nov 2017 :  10:44:05 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
No problem, whatsoever here either with pump gas and KRE heads. Mine is a little lower however at 10.3:1. Also zero decked, custom Ross pistons and HR 230/242 and 541 and 112. (I chose 1.5 ratio rockers even though Kauffman wanted me to use 1.65's). Car is ridiculously overpowered from right off idle on up. First gear is now practically useless with the 3.42 gears with 200-4R trans. Considering less gear now.

Bowties are for Pee-wee Herman. "Chevy": even the name sounds cheap, but not as cheap as your Pontiac will be with an LS transplant.
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Miles
Sitting Bull

Canada
154 Posts

Posted - 24 Nov 2017 :  10:10:53 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hmm, I've noticed a lot of combos almost the same. KRE heads, Ross flat tops, SD custom camshaft, zero decked.
My 428 has Ross flat tops, Zero decked, 0.042 MLS gaskets, 10.49:1 CR, 4.21 stroke, 4.185 bore, 6.625 rods, 463 CID, SD ported 85CC KRE heads, SD custom HR camshaft, full roller 1.52 rockers, 0.575/0.585 valve lift, 28 degrees total timing, proper air/fuel mixture, runs at 185-190 *F, 210 PSI cranking pressure and I have to add octane booster. I eliminated the vacuum advance as part throttle up hill pulls pinged. All the calculations I've done net about 190 psi cranking pressure, I've tested with four different pressure gauges. I have the engine torn down now and will re-measure the Bore, stroke, deck height, chamber volume, etc., but I was pretty careful measuring it all before I assembled it. I re-degreed the camshaft when I tore it apart and it was installed correctly with valve open and closing points where the are specked. I don't get it.
I have plenty of torque and also rarely use first gear only need second and fourth to drive around the island and OD on the highway. A bit low on HP though at only 497.
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ta man
Two Feathers

Canada
33 Posts

Posted - 24 Nov 2017 :  11:05:53 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm getting over 12 to 1 for compression with your engine using Wallace Racing Calculators..I'm not inputting gasket bore diameter and facturing in cc's above the rings....are the pistons true flat top?

1980 Trans Am
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Miles
Sitting Bull

Canada
154 Posts

Posted - 24 Nov 2017 :  12:20:54 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
They have 8 CC of valve relief, the gasket bore is 4.2", the piston to cylinder clearance is 0.006", the first ring is 0.250" from the top of the piston, when I measured the 85 CC chambers they were only 83 CCs not 85, piston tops were 0.0001"-0.0003" above the deck.
Piston deck height due to having to re-boring main saddles and caps after deck planed, was one thou deep.
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ta man
Two Feathers

Canada
33 Posts

Posted - 25 Nov 2017 :  09:36:59 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Your compression ratio is correct...Just to confirm you have SD's Stump Puller cam? What ICL is it installed at?

1980 Trans Am
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Steve C.
Crazy Horse

1691 Posts

Posted - 25 Nov 2017 :  10:00:51 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Note in my post above regarding both "Stump Puller" hyd roller cams the 5 degrees advance ground into them.


.
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tjs44
Cochise

USA
422 Posts

Posted - 25 Nov 2017 :  10:55:27 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
On my SP II cam we had to back it up to keep the pumping comp under 190.I thing we have it in at 109.Tom
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ta man
Two Feathers

Canada
33 Posts

Posted - 25 Nov 2017 :  11:04:35 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'd triple check the installed ICL and make sure its at Dave's recommended ICL.It really seems like its off in the cam timing.Its just weird if the cam and heads were bought from SD..that there are issues. Was the compression ratio discussed? Dave's stuff is well proven to work on the street on pump gas.
As Steve knows I'm a little biased...Dave could email me and say Ernie try this..I'd say yes ok...oh wait I've done that!

1980 Trans Am
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Miles
Sitting Bull

Canada
154 Posts

Posted - 25 Nov 2017 :  12:22:56 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yes, it's Dave's Stump puller. #51-000-9 S D Performance Inc Grind number PB 3111B/3122B HR112+4
It's ground advanced 4 degrees, I installed it at the specified 108 degrees. Checked it with a degree wheel when I installed it and again when I dis-assembled the engine.
I bought most of my engine parts from Dave and have no complaints about his work or service. He got me a new set of lifters when the first set failed to operate, well out of warranty, and has given me advice over the phone and via email. I've had lifter failures and rocker failures but that would be manufacturer not the vendor.
Dave suggested I retard the cam and try that but since then I've had to take the thing apart due to metal in the oil and will put in a solid roller when I re-build.
Is there an old faithful 2 and well as a stump puller 2?
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Blued and Painted
Chief PONTIAC

USA
3415 Posts

Posted - 25 Nov 2017 :  1:18:25 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I would first double check the state of tune.
Plug heat range, ignition advance, fuel trim.

Ignition box errors seem to be common.
Coolant flow could be a factor.


Bull Nose Formula/ 461/ Q-Jet/
TH400/ 3.08 8.5 / R44TS.
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Steve C.
Crazy Horse

1691 Posts

Posted - 25 Nov 2017 :  2:07:28 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Your grind number P8 3111B/3122B HR112+4 is different than the cam cards I've seen. They were P8 3111B/3122B HR112+5

Not a big deal, just a fwiw.

.
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Miles
Sitting Bull

Canada
154 Posts

Posted - 25 Nov 2017 :  2:19:38 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Air fuel good, on board calibrated air fuel gauge, ignition good, timing good, coolant good, no ignition box, plugs good, no vacuum leaks, no fuel starvation, no hot spots/sharp edges in combustion chambers, no sticking valves, no bent valves, no bent pushrods, no build up on pistons, no head gasket leaks, no coolant getting into intake, no ideas. except maybe lifters bleeding down and not opening valves soon enough and closing too soon.
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ta man
Two Feathers

Canada
33 Posts

Posted - 25 Nov 2017 :  2:37:19 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yes I have the new and improved OF 2.0..600hp street package with 10.75 compression pump gas 800 idle..works pretty good.I've ran 10.77 at over 126mph..without much tuning..broke my driveshaft and cracked my transmission case..it still has a little bit of torque!

1980 Trans Am
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Miles
Sitting Bull

Canada
154 Posts

Posted - 26 Nov 2017 :  10:11:45 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That's a pretty good run, too bad about the drive shaft and the tranny.
What's the Diif in the two OFs?
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Steve C.
Crazy Horse

1691 Posts

Posted - 26 Nov 2017 :  1:00:57 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Actual information regarding the OF2.0 cam is hard to find. Agent Secret Squirrel has reported working in covert operations of intelligence. He reports if you go to the lobe profile catalog below and look at page 21 you will find lobe number 3196 listed with 236 degrees at .050" and on page 18 you will find lobe number 3123 listed with 246 degrees at .050".

When ordered as "B" lobes the rated duration might change from the listed 288 degree intake and the listed 300 degrees exhaust. On the intake with a "B" lobe the lobe lift would change from the listed .3900" to .3910". On the exhaust it's not uncommon for a "B" lobe to have the lobe lift remain the same as your .4000".

http://www.compcams.com/Technical/Ca...terCatalog.pdf

From all this one could probably assume the grind number:
P8 3196B / 3123B HR112.0
236/246 at .050
0.3910 / 0.4000 lobe lift
112 lobe separation

Unknow is the amount of advance ground into the cam if any. I will presume 108 ICL

.

Edited by - Steve C. on 26 Nov 2017 1:32:15 PM
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Steve C.
Crazy Horse

1691 Posts

Posted - 26 Nov 2017 :  1:16:59 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The original Old Faithful...


Comp grind number P8 3122B / 3120B HR112.0

Rated 289 / 306 at .006" tappet lift
236 / 245 at .050"
112 LS / 108 ICL
Lobe lift .3800" and .3830"

.

Edited by - Steve C. on 26 Nov 2017 1:30:09 PM
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Miles
Sitting Bull

Canada
154 Posts

Posted - 26 Nov 2017 :  4:36:29 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yea, those are the numbers on the card I have sitting in front of me HR112+4 intake opens 7 closes 43, exhaust 54/2, but like you said no big deal either way.
I googled SD's OF2 camshaft, the piece that came up had a remark of the OF being available with a 112 LSA for 4.21 stroke and the 114 for larger, but when I opened it and got onto Dave's site I could find no mention of the OF2. Don't know why the stroke would require a larger LSA. But then as you can tell I am anything but a camshaft aficionado.
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ta man
Two Feathers

Canada
33 Posts

Posted - 26 Nov 2017 :  5:58:29 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If you need the secret passcode for the OF 2.0 specs let me know...lol I have the cam and very little info...Steve knows more than I do...

1980 Trans Am
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Steve C.
Crazy Horse

1691 Posts

Posted - 26 Nov 2017 :  7:29:53 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ernie, I'm not 100 percent positive the lobes I posted for the OF2 are correct. All I did is take the information known for the duration at .050" tappet lift and the lobe lift you presented, both known to you and already made public, and looked at the Comp specs online. From there it's not all that hard. That said, Comp Cams has a lot of lobes in their inventory that are not available on line and there is a very slight chance they might be different.

.
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Miles
Sitting Bull

Canada
154 Posts

Posted - 27 Nov 2017 :  10:05:19 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
TA, did you not get a cam card with your camshaft? The grind number will be the lobes and duration.
Maybe agent Secret Squirrel can take a micro film snap shot of the cam card and post the info.
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ta man
Two Feathers

Canada
33 Posts

Posted - 27 Nov 2017 :  12:20:25 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
No cam card just a piece of paper..236/246@.050 .391 .400 lobe lift lobe separation 112 install at 107-109ICL...
That is from memory..I had to burn the piece of paper and send the ashes back to Dave..



1980 Trans Am
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Steve C.
Crazy Horse

1691 Posts

Posted - 27 Nov 2017 :  1:36:20 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dave sends the OF2 cam to his customers without a actual Comp cam card, from Ernie's response only limited information is provided. Again, no big deal from that information it is not very hard to come up with the lobes used.

Call any source of your choice be it SD Performance who markets it or Jim Butler, Jegs, Summit, etc and order:

Grind number P8 3196B / 3123B HR112.0

And PLEASE do not get the idea that I'm personally trying to suggest taking away any business from, or avoiding, Dave at SD Performance. I've used SD Performance before and they are great.


.







Edited by - Steve C. on 27 Nov 2017 1:40:38 PM
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ta man
Two Feathers

Canada
33 Posts

Posted - 27 Nov 2017 :  3:06:58 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
An average guy just thinking you can slide this cam in better have his "valvesprings" in order! One of the higher lift cams out there for the street for our Pontiacs...A average guy starting from scratch would be so far ahead just sending the heads to Dave...no guess work.The head cam package is 600 hp on a 462 etc build..and emphasis on street manners.

1980 Trans Am
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Steve C.
Crazy Horse

1691 Posts

Posted - 27 Nov 2017 :  3:31:22 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"Always run enough seat pressure to control the valve action as it returns to the seat. Heavier valves require more seat pressure. Strong, lightweight valves require less seat pressure. When in doubt, run slightly more seat pressure . . . not less."
Crane Cams

It's not rocket science.

This reply below in a thread regarding the Old Faithful cam. It might not be the same specific cylinder heads involved here nor the same valve spring but note the pressure involved with the comment. And it's NOT what Comp suggests when they just regurgitate the use of their 995 valve spring !

"In most applications we use the Crane 99893 valve spring, installed at 1.790-1.810", I set the intakes on the tighter side of the tolerance, I test all the springs and always put the ones with the higher pressures on the intake valves, since the intake valves weigh more and also have the momentum of the charge pushing on the back side of the valve while the exhaust valve if anything has pressure pushing or drawing it closed and the valve is lighter. On my digital InterComp spring tester the seat pressures on a new set of springs will range from 147-157 lbs typically @ 1.800" and 380-390lbs @ 1.200" open pressure."
Dave Bischopp




.

Edited by - Steve C. on 27 Nov 2017 4:27:06 PM
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