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 Clacking Lifter?
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5335 Posts

Posted - 06 Jan 2017 :  7:42:41 PM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Not on my pontiac, but hey, it still applies:

I have a 327 with about 600-700 miles on it. I adjusted the rockers between 1/2 and 3/4 turn past 0 lash. It has a mild street lunati cam, springs, rockers, nuts, retainers, and locks. Heads are aftermarket cast iron world products with all new hardware.

I have one lifter that ticks, especially at idle when warm. When really cold, it doesn't seem to. If i adjust it down like 1/4 turn, it stops ticking for a second then comes back. Adjust again, same thing. You can back it out til it's clacking, adjust to no lash, 1/4 turn, no clacking, wait, ticking. Repeat and that's how it goes.

I can't push it down by hand so i can't think it's collapsed. Car runs otherwise smoothly, rocker moves like the others, no reason to suspect wiped lobe or anything. Sometimes if i turn the heater motor off, the radio off and listen when cruising, i get a little bit of a sewing machine sound. It's killing me.

Am i looking at a bad or collapsed lifter? I really REALLY hate pulling an intake in the car on a chevy, especially since i have NO LEAKS!!!

Edited by - cortcomp on 06 Jan 2017 7:43:45 PM

Admin
Ye Olde Webmaster

844 Posts

Posted - 06 Jan 2017 :  8:06:28 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Check the pushrod tip and see if it's straight.


"Dedicated to keeping the classic Pontiac engine alive."

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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5335 Posts

Posted - 06 Jan 2017 :  8:49:41 PM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I did roll the pushrod (also new and 1 piece) on glass and no problem. The rocker and ball all looked normal on inspection.
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Phil
The Great White Buffalo

USA
7214 Posts

Posted - 06 Jan 2017 :  8:58:19 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It'd be interesting to look at that cam lobe.

Bowties are for Pee-wee Herman. "Chevy": even the name sounds cheap, but not as cheap as your Pontiac will be with an LS transplant.
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5335 Posts

Posted - 06 Jan 2017 :  9:00:22 PM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
It would not be interesting because we don't want to think about a wiped cam on a mild grind at 600 miles :)

I'd think if it was wiped, tightening it down wouldn't make it quiet for a few seconds? Also, i didn't measure with a dial indicator, but it seemed to be moving the same as the others at idle, fwiw.
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NOTROD
Buffalo

USA
64 Posts

Posted - 07 Jan 2017 :  12:03:22 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sounds like a weak lifter to me. Maybe not collapsed, but a weak internal spring or check valve seal. A speck of debris or improperly mated sealing surfaces, something of that nature. Especially since it's worse when the engine is warm.
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phil400
Cochise

Canada
456 Posts

Posted - 07 Jan 2017 :  09:14:39 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Are you running Chevy style crimp nuts? Could it be one bad nut backing off enough to cause the tick?

78T/A 4-SPEED Marty blue 400/milled 6x-4's/268H,comp roller tip rockers/ performer Q-jet/RA manifolds 2.25" exhaust with x-pipe/ mine since '99 3rd & final owner as long as I'm alive
"sometimes I do what I want to do,rest of the time I do what I have to"
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Blued and Painted
Chief PONTIAC

USA
3404 Posts

Posted - 07 Jan 2017 :  10:52:30 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sounds like a bad lifter. What brand are they.
Im sure oil pressure is fine?


Bull Nose Formula/ 461/ Q-Jet/
TH400/ 3.08 8.5 / R44TS.

Edited by - Blued and Painted on 07 Jan 2017 10:53:14 AM
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5335 Posts

Posted - 07 Jan 2017 :  11:19:25 AM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Yes, OEM style crimp nuts, new lunati lifters recommended by them for the cam. Oil pressure is good, about 30-40 at idle cold with 15-40 and about 20 warm? It's a standard volume/standard pressure melling pump. And, none of the others clacking. Number 3 intake IIRC so not even the furthest from the pump.

I doubt it's backing off because i can tighten it while it's running, and the ticking goes away for a second or two. I still have the socket on it, and it comes back. I go another 1/4 turn, wait, same thing. It's not like i'm adjusting the valves and it comes back a day or two later.

I know i have to pull the intake, i just don't want to because it wasn't leaking, and i was excited and also it's a PITA and i'm lazy. I have to drain the heater core to swap out a seized up heater control valve. So, i guess i'll drain it decently low, enough to get below the heads and the core, and do them both at once. I guess lucky if it's that and not a cam issue?

Looking at the spring, it looks fine. I can see the damper in there, and it looks ok but i didn't take the retainer and spring/damper out to look at them.

Edited by - cortcomp on 07 Jan 2017 11:28:31 AM
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5335 Posts

Posted - 08 Jan 2017 :  2:39:51 PM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Just an update, looked at the cam lobe and lifter, fine. Replaced with new. Still slight ticking. I took the spring and damper off to make sure one wasn't broke and i was just missing it, and when i connected compressed air to the cylinder to hold the valve up, it barely did. Re-assembled after hell trying to get spring and retainer back in. Tested compression (like i should have in the first place.) Cyl next to it: 160. This one? 0. Didn't even bounce the gauge. Apparently, that intake valve isn't sealing and the clacking is the valve hitting the seat. Of course i was just some bolts away from having the head off in the first place, I really wish i had thought to do a compression check first. Now i have to start all over. Happy new year!
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NOTROD
Buffalo

USA
64 Posts

Posted - 08 Jan 2017 :  5:58:08 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Something doesn't seem right cort. If you have a dead cylinder I would think it wouldn't have run smoothly. Unless your cam is wild enough to mask it. Did you pull the head?
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5335 Posts

Posted - 08 Jan 2017 :  7:40:05 PM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Just got done pulling the head, bent intake valve. What a PITA. On the one low cyl on the other side, i'm gonna go with "the rings haven't seated yet". I bought the car to be a driver, and 105 psi will drive.

I swear it ran smooth. It was a little shaky around 500RPM in gear, but still way smoother than some lumpier cams i had. I picked this cam for two reasons: a) good from idle to like 5k, wanted all street take off power, not top end and b) because it was a lunati and i got the motor with a comp cam in it. mild, but still, didn't want any valve train noise. You can see how far i go to chase a ticking!

I swear, it ran decent, i was getting like 12mpg but i figured it was because it was all city and i really hadn't tuned it, i was hoping for 15+. Never wanted to stall, i drove it 3 hours round trip on new years! Fired right up when cold and right in gear and go. I'm doubting my old car skills :-/

Maybe now i'll get better MPG and more oomph and even smoother?
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NOTROD
Buffalo

USA
64 Posts

Posted - 08 Jan 2017 :  8:16:00 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bent valve....that sucks. I'm with you, I hate valvetrain noise. I guess it's good that you stayed with it and found it now before something really went wrong and tore up a new engine.
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tjs44
Cochise

USA
411 Posts

Posted - 08 Jan 2017 :  8:50:56 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
you need to figure out HOW you bent a valve!Not normal.Tom
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5335 Posts

Posted - 08 Jan 2017 :  8:53:22 PM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I agree, no idea what happened here. It's not a big cam, no clearance issues, the springs and everything match the cam, came in the same kit. Nothing wild about this setup.

I'm worried on the one cyl reading low on the other bank. I hate to pull that head because everything is so tight over there and everything else looks great, no noises. I'm worried the machine shop WON'T find an issue with it, and then i'm looking at rings. THEN i gotta drop the pan and try to sneak one piston out and put rings on it and sneak it back in....

Pretty soon i'm down to a bare block in the car!

Edited by - cortcomp on 08 Jan 2017 9:19:21 PM
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Phil
The Great White Buffalo

USA
7214 Posts

Posted - 09 Jan 2017 :  10:32:05 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Have you experienced a backfire or similar thing prior to the noise showing up?

Bowties are for Pee-wee Herman. "Chevy": even the name sounds cheap, but not as cheap as your Pontiac will be with an LS transplant.
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5335 Posts

Posted - 09 Jan 2017 :  3:23:07 PM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
No, nothing, it really did just run "pretty good." My other 327 is a small valve truck motor that doesn't wind up too quick, all torque. This was way snappier than that. A little rougher, but i thought that was the cam.

Also, keep in mind it's been 600 miles of driving and tinkering on this car. The noise could have been there all along and i didn't notice it until door seals, exhaust leaks, dash rattles and all that were addressed. I'm really hoping the number 7 is low because of a valve also. I really don't want to deal with rings in car. I'll put some oil in the cyl tonight and crank over and pray it still reads 105.

It could have been me installing the valve. I did it on a wood work bench with the level type spring compressor (valves were in, i just swapped springs.) Maybe i pressed a valve against the bench top at a wrong angle? Maybe it wasn't bent and i bent it removing it the same way? Strange 15 other valves seem fine.
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68bird
Sitting Bull

USA
221 Posts

Posted - 04 Apr 2017 :  08:36:24 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well, what'd you learn on cylinder 7?
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5335 Posts

Posted - 04 Apr 2017 :  09:32:46 AM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Holy crap.. SO, I took the heads to the machine shop, and 7!!! bent intake valves, although 6 only slightly. I was just going to re-ring and re-bearing 5 and 7 (because i couldn't read my notes to see which had the low compression), put the heads on with valves fixed and move on. The pistons had LIGHT witness marks. The builder wondered if the cam was too far advanced, but i verified it was good when installed, unless the timing set was off, which has happened to me. Also, the cam lift is so low that it should be SO unlikely. The way one piston was hit, it moved the eyebrow over some, like the piston was moving DOWN when the valve pulled it UP. I didn't look that closely but it was plain when pointed out.

So i had a decision. The world products heads were good heads, might as well rebuild them. I could have that small block rebuilt and assembled, PTV clearance checked, degreed, valve springs checked. Or, i could find another shortblock because this is truly my daily driver now and i need to stop borrowing the wife's car.

I put out a mass email to my friends in the local car club asking if anyone had a 327+ fresh shortblock, ideally never run for a project you didn't finish, or an engine i could test drive that was clean and newer, and mild.

Hours later i got an email from a friend who said he had my motor: a later 327, rebuilt 2 years ago but a well known and resepected builder in our area. Cast flat top pistons (mine were forged but whatever, they're a desirable piston), fresh in plastic, ready to go, sitting in heated storage for 2 years, never run. We went and grabbed it and a new lunati cam and lifter kit so i'd know what cam i was running and we were off to the races.

The machine shop with the heads had an engine dyno in the back (really a surprise) and for a few hundred would assemble everything, check everything, break it in, fix leaks, and do some pulls. When it was all said and done, they did a few pulls up to around 5500 or 6k. With conservative timing, it does just over 275hp/315 ft lbs of torque. You could be cruising at 35mph, 4th gear, locked up, 1200rpm idling through the neighborhood and no studder. No clacking, no weird noises, so i'm happy.

As with most projects, it took two motors to get me there though. Another lesson learned i guess!
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Blued and Painted
Chief PONTIAC

USA
3404 Posts

Posted - 04 Apr 2017 :  11:52:10 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I was thinking tight valve guide clearance.
But if your happy, cheers !!


Bull Nose Formula/ 461/ Q-Jet/
TH400/ 3.08 8.5 / R44TS.
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5335 Posts

Posted - 04 Apr 2017 :  12:27:42 PM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Surprisingly, no valve guide damage even on the one that was well tuliped. I'll never know if it was how it was run when i got it that did it, or after i re-assembled with a different cam, fresh bearings, etc.

Sold it off for about half of what my machine shop bill was, so no crying over spilled milk. Money spent, moving on. Car has been reliable, knock on wood.
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