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 HFT cam for 461 stroker
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deez nuts
Buffalo

67 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2016 :  4:06:50 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think I'll end up going with the comp cams Magnum roller tips or the prw ones. Most likely the comp cams though as I've read good things about them on other forums and I like that they're American made vs the PRWs.

I'm planning to run full length headers and a full exhaust with mufflers. I'll either get the summit header back kit or have a shop bend an exhaust and use glass pack mufflers. Are summit brand headers good quality or should I spring for the hedman brand? Cost is $235 vs $135.

Also where is the best place to find the torque sequence and values for assembling this engine? Anyone have a link or recommend a book or manual I can buy that would have all that in it?
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5335 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2016 :  7:46:36 PM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I'm not a header guy, i love the RA cast header manifolds.

Book, rocky rotella's pontiac book, or jim hands if you can find it. I do googling when i'm on the phone though in the garage, looking for a specific torque value.
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deez nuts
Buffalo

67 Posts

Posted - 12 Oct 2016 :  5:01:01 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'll probably get the comp cams Magnum roller tips because ive read some good things about them in other forums and they're a fairly good price.

Im planning to go with a summit header back exhaust or have a local shop bend one up for me. So are the summit brand headers good or should I spring for hedman headers? $135 vs $240 for hedman.

Also is there a book or manual I can ger that will have all the torque sequence and values I need to assemble my engine? Or can anyone share a link?

Thanks
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Chicagogoat
Cochise

USA
823 Posts

Posted - 12 Oct 2016 :  8:00:36 PM  Show Profile  Visit Chicagogoat's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Here's a link for Pontiac torque specs. Wallace racing site also has a lot of other Pontiac related info, calculators, etc.

http://www.wallaceracing.com/torque.htm

Don't forget to check out our host site's excellent selection of tech articles.

http://www.pontiacstreetperformance.com/psp/techarticles.html

Pure Pontiac: learn it, live it, love it!
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deez nuts
Buffalo

67 Posts

Posted - 24 Oct 2016 :  7:49:36 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Can anyone recommend a specific oil pump? I'll be using a stock oil pan. Should I get a high pressure or high volume pump? Stock OEM replacement?

Also was planning to get a Mr.gasket fuel pump because its only about $100 from jegs. Any specific fuel pump that's better?
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68bird
Sitting Bull

USA
221 Posts

Posted - 25 Oct 2016 :  11:49:05 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Carter is well know for good mechanical fuel pumps.

Robb Hermes
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Brian R
Crazy Horse

USA
1672 Posts

Posted - 03 Nov 2016 :  11:14:45 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
When I was building my 461 a few years back, everyone recommended the high volume pump not high pressure pump.

Based on my oil pressure at low RPM's I would lean towards the high pressure if I were to do it again. 18 lbs at 750 rpm idle. At 3000 rpm, the pressure is around 40 - 42 which I understand to be good. Just hate those low numbers at idle.

I say that hoping others will jump in and clarify why one of them over the other.
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Brian R
Crazy Horse

USA
1672 Posts

Posted - 03 Nov 2016 :  11:31:08 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Going backwards here...

The Comp Cam Roller Tips: I have had the same set on 3 engines for apx 15 years, never a single issue. 2) 400's and 1) 461. Various heads and cams, they are pushing apx 80,000 miles now.

I would say, for at least reliability, they are fantastic.

Performance wise, I do understand there are minor gains to be had but for my purpose (street) no reason at all to move up to full rollers. When these do finally fail - I may....
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deez nuts
Buffalo

67 Posts

Posted - 05 Nov 2016 :  02:04:51 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks for all the help so far guys. I see that Butler performance has some oil pumps at a decent price so I guess it would be a good idea to call them and get what they recommend.

The comp cams roller tips look more attractive the more I hear about them. I sure hope Santa brings me some of this stuff!
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Phil
The Great White Buffalo

USA
7214 Posts

Posted - 08 Nov 2016 :  7:54:19 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Same experience here as Brian. I've run them since they came out in the 80's on some of my Pontiac's, a 5.0 Ford and a Monte SS and have not had a single problem.

Bowties are for Pee-wee Herman. "Chevy": even the name sounds cheap, but not as cheap as your Pontiac will be with an LS transplant.
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Steve C.
Crazy Horse

1672 Posts

Posted - 08 Nov 2016 :  8:28:52 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Another source if interested....


http://stores.precisionoilpumps.com/pontiac/
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deez nuts
Buffalo

67 Posts

Posted - 14 Nov 2016 :  1:49:55 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Do I need 60psi? 80psi? Will be using stock style pan
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5335 Posts

Posted - 14 Nov 2016 :  2:04:39 PM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Honestly, depends on bearing clearances. I just did a 327 with tight clearances, and put std flow, std volume. On larger journal engines, some builders prefer them looser, and so maybe an HV pump is good. then some complain with HV/HP why do you want all the oil on top of the motor for the valves seals to deal with?

At the end of the day, i like 15-20 psi hot at idle, and 40ish+ down the road cruising. 40ish cold idle, 60+ cold cruising. Oil weight, climate, and which pump all affect that.

But if you have an engine that idles 10 hot? And it never changes? Run it 10 years. It's the never changes part that matters most.
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tjs44
Cochise

USA
411 Posts

Posted - 14 Nov 2016 :  8:27:38 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You dont need a 80lb pump!60 is all you need.Tom
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deez nuts
Buffalo

67 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2016 :  12:41:34 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
How do I know what my bearing clearances are? This is my first car engine I'll be building as is probably apparent from the questions I'm asking lol
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5335 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2016 :  7:46:50 PM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Like building from the ground up? If you don't know, you'll need a machine shop involved. They should be able to tell you the clearances.
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deez nuts
Buffalo

67 Posts

Posted - 24 Nov 2016 :  09:17:42 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yes I'm building from the ground up. So the machine shop that sold me the rotating assembly could tell me or I would have to have it measured after its together?

The place that sold me the rotating assembly, cnc-motorsports, recommended a melling pump that they sell so I was thinking of just getting that. Then running Valvoline vr1 10w30.

BTW I'll add that cnc-motorsports is an awesome group of people to work with.
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5335 Posts

Posted - 25 Nov 2016 :  10:05:16 AM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Well, you could plastigauge during assembly, but that's really a ballpark. The only way to know for sure is to put the bearings in, torque the cap to the rod, and measure the ID with accurate equipment. Then, measure the OD of the rod throw with a micrometer, moving it around looking for the largest point. Then subtract and you know. But, most people don't invest in precision machining tools because they'd rarely use them. So, i find the best route for most of us amateurs is to read up and decide what you want as far as build, parts, etc. Then, go to a good machine shop that will do what you want and listen to you, and pay them to do at least the shortblock. Once that's done, part of that is measuring and documenting your clearances.

You would say something like, hey, i've read on these large journal engines i want a little more clearance, so instead of being ok with like .017 to .022, i'd like to be closer to .025. (If that's what you want.) You'd also be like, i want the front oil galley plugs threaded for plugs, or i want a small hole in the rear plug so oil pees on the dist gear, or i want this brand rod and pistons, etc.
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deez nuts
Buffalo

67 Posts

Posted - 26 Nov 2016 :  06:44:53 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This is complicated. I see why people just buy crate engines lol
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deez nuts
Buffalo

67 Posts

Posted - 26 Nov 2016 :  07:01:34 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Also is there any other manual shifters out there other than Hurst? Looking for possibly a cheaper option. Borg Warner 4 spd
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5335 Posts

Posted - 26 Nov 2016 :  11:17:34 AM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Don't do it. Hurst is the standard for a reason. I used a cheaper one, ugh. Jammed gears, loose feeling, miserable. And i'm a perfectionist, so there was no slop, all joints tight, lots of time adjusting. Just use a hurst.
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deez nuts
Buffalo

67 Posts

Posted - 26 Nov 2016 :  3:50:46 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Copy that. The car came with a Hurst but it's shot. I'd like to send it to their rebuild program but they're difficult to get in contact with. I'll try calling them a couple times but I guess if it's money well spent and I need to I'll just get a new one.
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Steve C.
Crazy Horse

1672 Posts

Posted - 26 Nov 2016 :  6:27:58 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Seek a Hurst rebuild kit. Hurst the company itself might be in turmoil, they have lost patent rights.
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deez nuts
Buffalo

67 Posts

Posted - 01 Dec 2016 :  6:28:00 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I just sent my shifter out for rebuild service yesterday. It cost almost the same as if I ordered the kit and did it myself so I figured why not just send it to a pro.

I'm excited because my block is at the machine shop getting bored out and I should have it back in a couple weeks. I'm like a little kid waiting for Christmas!
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DanM
Buffalo

80 Posts

Posted - 02 Dec 2016 :  11:26:33 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Good Morning team.

Based on advice I respect, you can compare an 041 in a 400 to a 041 in a 455 this way: the large engine with a cam 10 degrees wider acts similarly to the 50 ci smaller engine with a cam 10 degrees narrower. So an 041 at 230 in a 455 would act like a cam with 220 in a 400, as far as power band/rpms. Of course the 455 would make more torque at each RPM.

220 degrees of intake in a 400 would be as large as you want with a stock torque converter.

So the constraint of having a stock TC means don't go any wider than 230 degrees in a ~455 even that might be too much.

The rear end gear matters because that will set the rpm at which the car runs when pulling away from a stop. 2.56 gears might be unusable in a 455 with a 230 degree cam. The car may stall or at the very least stumble. 3.55 gears much better.

Meanwhile the porting of the heads may be unnecessary for RPMs below 4000. In fact porting will reduce torque and power below 3500 rpm because the larger diameter ports reduce air velocity. Very significant reduction in torque at less than 2000 rpm (say, 30 ft-lb less at 2000 rpm) hence the need for looser TC and/or shorter rear gears (a.k.a. 3.55 and up).

If it was just a mild porting job that grew the 6x-8s from 210 cfm to 250 cfm then no real need to worry. This combination just might be the perfect match with everything just on the edge at idle.

Meanwhile from 4000 to 5000 life will be wonderful.

71 LeMans Sport Convertible with 310,000 miles driven year round since 1994.
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DanM
Buffalo

80 Posts

Posted - 02 Dec 2016 :  11:34:30 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Deez Nuts. I see you are driving a 4sp (manual I assume). so my comment about torque converter doesn't apply here. The worst that would happen with too low rear end gear ratio (2.56 or 3.08) is you'll have to feather the heck out of your clutch.

Meanwhile you can identify the gear ratio using the code stamped on the rear end. If it's like an A-body the code is stamped on the front side of the passenger side axle tube about 12 inches from the pumpkin. If you haven't already looked you should. It's fun. You'll find out what year the axle was built and if it came open (peg leg) or closed (posi). which, by the way, you didn't mention if you have posi.

Also, the single plane intake might be a mis-match for your combo if you are looking for mid-rpm. The Pontiac dual-plane intake is masterful. the Edlebrock aluminum dual plane is a near identical layout.

71 LeMans Sport Convertible with 310,000 miles driven year round since 1994.
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DanM
Buffalo

80 Posts

Posted - 02 Dec 2016 :  11:47:45 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sorry to monopolize the conversation, but I just wanted to add a vote in favor of the roller tip rockers for two reasons. They will be more accurate wrt 1.5 actually being 1.5 for all 16 rockers and second they drop right in place of stamped steel with no other modifications required.

that reminds me. Deez nuts, look at the flow numbers on your heads from 100 at 200 at 300 at 400 500 600. If the heads are flowing max at 500 then select the cam lift and rocker ratio accordingly. If the heads continue to increase flow - significantly - to .600 then you might choose 1.65 rockers. The math is simple. Stock heads essentially max out around 400 to 440. If you had mild port work then 550 may be more than enough. Plus there are better options for springs if you keep things around .520.

So, rpm range will select the cam duration.
The flow characteristics of the head will select lift.
done.

XR282HR cam from comp cams would be my choice.


Have fun,
Dan

71 LeMans Sport Convertible with 310,000 miles driven year round since 1994.
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DanM
Buffalo

80 Posts

Posted - 02 Dec 2016 :  11:50:31 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Buy the factory Pontiac Service Manual. Nothing better.

https://www.diyrepairmanuals.com/proddetail.asp?prod=71PonLeMaS&gclid=CNz968_71dACFQtLDQodKkMCNA


71 LeMans Sport Convertible with 310,000 miles driven year round since 1994.
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Steve C.
Crazy Horse

1672 Posts

Posted - 02 Dec 2016 :  11:54:08 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A fellow wrote into Car Craft magazine and asked... is there much performance difference when a cam is designed for a specific bore and stroke? His example, he had a 455 Pontiac with Ram Air IV cam and Rhodes lifters in his '67 Grand Prix. Like most Pontiac cams it is designed for a 400 ci engine. He asked if he would gain with a cam designed for a 455? The engine had a Holley 750cfm vacuum-secondary carb, an Edelbrock Performer intake, and headers. The car had 2.56 gears, operates from idle to 4,500 rpm, and runs 14.20 at 100 mph. Larger engines, in general, can tolerate more duration than smaller engines. But because piston velocity versus crank-pin position is critical, stroke, rod length, and rod-length-to-stroke (R/S) ratio changes affect cam choice more than an increase in bore size. R/S ratios increase piston dwell time near TDC. This makes the engine act like it has increased overlap. Higher R/S ratios also increase the intake-charge signal by accelerating the piston more quickly after it moves away from TDC. An engine with longer rods, a higher R/S ratio, and a longer stroke needs a wider LDA, assuming you want power to peak at the same rpm. Of coarse, on stock-based engines with stock rods, a stroke increase usually results in a R/S ratio decrease; to a large extent they cancel each other out, especially at the street-performance level.
Yet another consideration on the Pontiac 455 in particular is that the weak stock Pontiac cast rods impose a 5,700-rpm limit (compared t0 6,200 on a 400), so the fact that the same cam peaks out at a lower rpm than it does in a 400 actually serves as a fail-safe device to protect the engine. The most cost-effective solution is 1.65:1 rockers (about 15-20 hp if you shift at 5,700 rpm) and an Edelbrock Performer RPM (worth another 30 hp with no change of shift point). Add 3.23;1 gears and it will be well into the 13s.
(May 2000 Car Craft)

Edited by - Steve C. on 02 Dec 2016 11:57:56 AM
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Steve C.
Crazy Horse

1672 Posts

Posted - 02 Dec 2016 :  12:00:24 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
More generic gobbly goop....

How does increasing or decreasing duration affect my engine performance?

Duration has a tremendous amount of affect on an engine's performance personality. Lower duration camshafts will produce more torque in the lower rpm range while camshafts with larger duration specs will sacrifice some low rpm torque for upper rpm power. There is a common thought that for each 10-degree change in duration, the powerband of the engine moves up or down in the rpm range by 500 rpm.


Edited by - Steve C. on 02 Dec 2016 12:00:44 PM
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deez nuts
Buffalo

67 Posts

Posted - 06 Dec 2016 :  7:35:41 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My rear is a 3.08 as I've checked and based on a mph/rpm calculator it should work great with the crower 60243 cam I picked out.

Now my main focus is getting a carburetor and clutch picked out. Clutch is for a Borg Warner 4spd. 10.4 inch disk 26 spline. Thinking I'll be ordering a Holley 780 vac secondary.

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deez nuts
Buffalo

67 Posts

Posted - 31 Aug 2017 :  10:20:09 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I went with the crower 60243. What is a good place to set the timing using this cam? Again running ported 6x-8 heads in a 461 for 9.5/1 compression. Just looking for a benchmark to start with timing and then when the engine is broken in I'll fine tune things
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Bill Boyle
Horse Feathers (Charter Member)

USA
4793 Posts

Posted - 31 Aug 2017 :  4:36:24 PM  Show Profile  Visit Bill Boyle's Homepage  Reply with Quote
14 degrees at idle.

"Dedicated to keeping the classic Pontiac engine alive."

----
400 bored +.030, forged TRW pistons, ported 62 heads, Hedman headers, 2.5 SS dual exhaust X Pypes, Comp 276AH10 cam, Scorpion 1.65 RR, 850 Q-jet, stock intake & tuned HEI; original owner.
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