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deez nuts
Buffalo

67 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2016 :  06:57:36 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Need some advice on selecting the proper cam for my build...
461 Stroker using flat top pistons for 9.3/1 compression, heads will be stock 6x-8 castings ported by RAM racing in Oxford PA. Intake manifold is a Speedmaster single plane aluminum casting which will eventually be holding a 750 Holley Vac Sec. Rockers will be 1.5/1 roller tip (unless I should get 1.65/1)

Will be going in a 77 T/A 4spd. Street car running on Pump gas. Looking for something tame and reliable enough to drive to work if I want but still put you in the seat and bake tires when hitting the loud pedal. The power goal is around 425 hp at the crank.

Looking for a Hydraulic Flat Tappet cam that will make my goal and still be on pump gas with decent MPG (yeah right lol)

Looking to get cam and lifters together and then will add a double roller timing set. Part numbers please...

Thanks for the help guys!

deez nuts
Buffalo

67 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2016 :  07:01:54 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I neglected to mention the desired RPM range. Car has a stock rear gear and will remain stock. So bottom end TQ needs to be strong which I know is the strong point of the mighty Pontiac anyway.

Looking for 1500-5500 RPM. No desire to rev past 5500 as I don't see the need. Keep that engine together!
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Tub
Sitting Bull

172 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2016 :  08:25:05 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The cheapest would be the Summit K2802 cam/lifter set.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-k2802

Next step up might be something like the Crower 60243 & some of their cam saver lifters.

http://www.crower.com/camshafts/pontiac/pontiac-287-455-compu-pro-hydraulic-cam-284-hdp.html

http://www.crower.com/hydraulic-lifters-hi-lube-olds-pontiac-v8.html

One small step above that might be a Howards 410051-14 cam with the Crower Cam Saver lifters.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hrs-410051-14/overview/make/pontiac

I see no reason to go any bigger, for what you're wanting.


Edited by - Tub on 08 Oct 2016 08:37:56 AM
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deez nuts
Buffalo

67 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2016 :  08:35:41 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tub

The cheapest would be the Summit K2802 cam/lifter set.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-k2802



Yeah I saw that and it's definitely a reasonable price. How does the Summit Cam and Lifter set compare in quality to say a Comp Cams or Lunati? Any idea on what the power output would be with the Summit grind?

Also I'm willing to pay for a "better" cam profile if it unlocks more power. Relative to the rest of the engine cost I have no problem paying $250 for a cam/lifter set. Some of the Comp Cams kits even come with the timing chain included.
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Tub
Sitting Bull

172 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2016 :  08:46:43 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yes, there are cams that will unlock more power. But, as you increase the horsepower, you begin to lose some streetability.

If you keep the adv duration @ .050 lift number down to around 230 or a little less, most of these cams will give you a good idle, and plenty of vac & low end torque.

As you go up closer to 240 degrees, you move the power range higher on the rpm scale, and begin to lose some of your low end torque, vac, and idle quality. If you do decide to go bigger, you can keep an LSA of at least 112, which will help some with the idle, vac & torque.

The 041 clones are popular for 455 builds. The Melling version is an SPC-8, which is less than $100 on Ebay. The Crower version is a 60919. CC & Lunati also have their versions.

Here's a Crane that's just slightly bigger.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/crn-284281

The Erson version has 235/240 @ .050.

http://www.pbm-erson.com/Catalog/Erson/Camshafts/Hydraulic%20Flat%20Tappet_E/ERSE310031

Edited by - Tub on 08 Oct 2016 09:01:56 AM
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deez nuts
Buffalo

67 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2016 :  08:50:17 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tub

Yes, there are cams that will unlock more power. But, as you increase the horsepower, you begin to lose some streetability.

If you keep the adv duration @ .050 lift number down to around 230 or a little less, most of these cams will give you a good idle, and plenty of vac & low end torque.

As you go up closer to 240 degrees, you move the power range higher on the rpm scale, and begin to lose some of your low end torque, vac, and idle quality. If you do decide to go bigger, you can keep an LSA of at least 112, which will help some with the idle, vac & torque.



I'm under the understanding that cubic inch as well as compression also effects your power band. As in more cubic inch brings the power band to lower RPM. Is this true and something that should be considered when picking a cam for the desired RPM range?

This is my first Pontiac builds but I've done more with high performance Harleys and the big winner there is getting some compression and those things come alive with a hi lift cam.
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Tub
Sitting Bull

172 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2016 :  09:05:42 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"...more cubic inch brings the power band to lower RPM. Is this true and something that should be considered when picking a cam for the desired RPM range?..."

Yes. One of these 041 clones can be pretty nasty in a 400, with auto & stock converter. But, when you put that same cam in a 455, it works out real good.

With the cams I've mentioned, your peak torque will be somewhere between 3000 & 3500 rpm. And your peak hp will probably be somewhere around 5000 rpm, or maybe just a tick higher. But they'll rev to 5500 easily.

If you go with closer to 240 @ .050 dur, it will move the peak torque & hp numbers up the rpm scale a little. Idle will be a little rougher, and you'll have a little less vac.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/lun-10510507

Edited by - Tub on 08 Oct 2016 09:17:15 AM
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deez nuts
Buffalo

67 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2016 :  09:15:32 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tub

"...more cubic inch brings the power band to lower RPM. Is this true and something that should be considered when picking a cam for the desired RPM range?..."

Yes. One of these 041 clones can be pretty nasty in a 400, with auto & stock converter. But, when you put that same cam in a 455, it works out real good.



What do you mean when you say 041 clone?

The one from Crower looks very attractive and I like that their stuff is American Made according to their website. Not sure where other manufacturers make their stuff. What would running a 1.65/1 Rocker ratio do with the Crower Cam? Obviously increase total lift but would I still be safe with piston to valve clearance? (stock 6x-8 valve size, valve angle changed to 45deg, flat top pistons with valve relieves). Does going to 1.65/1 rockers change the RPM range of the cam as well?
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Tub
Sitting Bull

172 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2016 :  09:20:23 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"...What do you mean when you say 041 clone?..."


041 refers to the cams that Pontiac used in the '68 Ram Air 2 engines, and the '69 & '70 RA IV engines.

The 1.65 rockers will increase the lift and effective duration of the cam. But it also puts more stress on everything. Unless you are building for absolute peak power, I'd stay with 1.5 or 1.52 rockers.

1.65's with an 041 clone shouldn't give you any valve to piston clearance problems.

Edited by - Tub on 08 Oct 2016 09:27:22 AM
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deez nuts
Buffalo

67 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2016 :  09:26:50 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Okay I had never heard that term before. At this point I think I'll be going with the Crower Cam you had listed since it has the streetable duration but is higher lift than the others.

Best to stick with 1.5/1 rockers or get 1.65/1. Looks like the lift would change to about .522/.538 using the 1.65/1 rockers.
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Tub
Sitting Bull

172 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2016 :  09:31:56 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by deez nuts

Okay I had never heard that term before. At this point I think I'll be going with the Crower Cam you had listed since it has the streetable duration but is higher lift than the others.

Best to stick with 1.5/1 rockers or get 1.65/1. Looks like the lift would change to about .522/.538 using the 1.65/1 rockers.



Yeah, I think the Crower 60243 with 1.5 or 1.52 rockers will give you good low end and mid range power, right where you need it, and will provide a good idle and vac.

The Crower 68404-16 springs are usually recommended for these cams.

http://www.jegs.com/i/Crower/258/68404-16/10002/-1?CAWELAID=1710547370&CAGPSPN=pla&CAAGID=15769068431&CATCI=aud-194671897271:pla-177199366631&catargetid=230006180003463839&cadevice=c&gclid=CjwKEAjwsuK_BRDD9ISR1bawwUwSJACbOiixIB8Q6qIj4iD2RA6JBKnYfbVR2Gc1P35RvvEeVPeYAxoCyybw_wcB


Edited by - Tub on 08 Oct 2016 09:34:16 AM
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deez nuts
Buffalo

67 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2016 :  10:13:27 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I guess I'll plan to order those springs as well then. Any particular timing chain set I should get? Was just planning to get a Comp Cams double roller for Summit Racing. I think it was about $50.

Also was planning to do stamped roller tip rockers, also Comp Cams from Summit racing. Anything better?

I have an Edelbrock 600cfm carb that came with the car (bought car blown engine). I was hoping to reuse the eddy initially and upgrade to a 750 Holley Vac Sec later, hopefully Santa brings me one. Should I plan to get the Carb right away and not bother with the Eddy 600? Is the Holley 750 the best way to go or should I go bigger?
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Tub
Sitting Bull

172 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2016 :  10:40:21 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by deez nuts

I guess I'll plan to order those springs as well then. Any particular timing chain set I should get? Was just planning to get a Comp Cams double roller for Summit Racing. I think it was about $50.

Also was planning to do stamped roller tip rockers, also Comp Cams from Summit racing. Anything better?

I have an Edelbrock 600cfm carb that came with the car (bought car blown engine). I was hoping to reuse the eddy initially and upgrade to a 750 Holley Vac Sec later, hopefully Santa brings me one. Should I plan to get the Carb right away and not bother with the Eddy 600? Is the Holley 750 the best way to go or should I go bigger?




Most say a "true roller" is better. Summit has a true roller billet set which has lots of keyways, in case you wanna degree in your cam.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-g6612-b/overview/make/pontiac

The CC 2112 is about the cheapest double roller set. It has a 2 degree keyway.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-2112?seid=srese1&cm_mmc=pla-google-_-shopping-_-srese1-_-comp-cams&gclid=CjwKEAjwsuK_BRDD9ISR1bawwUwSJACbOiixODQ_zTfxrs8KLhWCeg7iSi7xou62vQeHscSjAit3bBoCbdzw_wcB

Edited by - Tub on 08 Oct 2016 10:43:59 AM
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deez nuts
Buffalo

67 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2016 :  10:42:17 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Okay I might go with the billet set since it's only slightly more expensive.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-cl51-116-3 What do you think of this cam? Little more aggressive profile but would it still be good for pump gas street car? Obviously I want the most cam possible to make big power. I like that this is over 500 lift but still only 231/240@.050
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Tub
Sitting Bull

172 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2016 :  10:46:53 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by deez nuts

Okay I might go with the billet set since it's only slightly more expensive.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-cl51-116-3 What do you think of this cam? Little more aggressive profile but would it still be good for pump gas street car? Obviously I want the most cam possible to make big power. I like that this is over 500 lift but still only 231/240@.050



That's just the CC version of the 041 cam. Those over .500 lift numbers are with 1.65 rockers.

BUT, if you want "the most cam possible to make big power" the 041 clones are not that. Bigger cams will make more horsepower.

Add about 10 degrees of dur @ .050, and increase top end hp.

This CC is probably just over the line. Ruff idle, little vac, less low rpm torque, but more top end hp.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-51-316-4?seid=srese1&cm_mmc=pla-google-_-shopping-_-srese1-_-comp-cams&gclid=CjwKEAjwsuK_BRDD9ISR1bawwUwSJACbOiixwhb0VJ8nFgSTFtQ1-w6DKnJZMJjICvOUIk5fwb_6nxoCV1vw_wcB

Here's one that's just under 240 @ .050. But most of these bigger cams are better with higher compression.

http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=1765&gid=279

Unless you just want a ruff idle and mostly upper range hp, I'd stay with an 041 clone or just a hair smaller.

I don't think I'd even consider anything bigger than a Voodoo 284, for a streetable cam. And it may be right on the edge, if not a hair over.

http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=1778

You ask about a carb. I recommend a stage 2 800 Q-jet, from SMI. They'll build it for your engine/vehicle/usage specs. There are lots of 9 & 10 sec drag cars running a Q-jet.

http://www.smicarburetor.com/products/sfID1/28/sfID2/9/sfID3/100

But, if you wanna stay with a square bore, I'd recommend a 780 vac. Quick Fuel make a good one. SS-780-VS

https://www.amazon.com/Quick-Fuel-Technology-SS-780-VS-Carburetor/dp/B003M96BHW

If you don't wanna spend quite that much, you can go with one of the old Holley 3310-1 780's. There are usually some cores and rebuilds on Ebay.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2051541.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xholley+3310-1.TRS0&_nkw=holley+3310-1&_sacat=6000

Be aware that the later 750cfm vac models which also share the 3310 number have straight leg boosters, and only one metering block. But, you can replace the metering plate, whic comes on one end, with a block. I have a 2-block 750 vac on my 455 bracket engine. It works very well. Ran 7.30's 1/8 mile times, in my '74 Ventura. Left strong, either from an idle or a 2000 rpm power brake.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-0-3310c/overview/

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2051541.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xholley+0-3310c.TRS0&_nkw=holley+0-3310c&_sacat=6000

The 3310's come with different choke & finish options.

Some like bigger carbs on long stroke Pontiacs. I don't think it's necessary, for street use. But there are vac sec models with over 800 cfm.

https://www.amazon.com/Quick-SS-880-VS-880CFM-Vacuum-Secondary/dp/B00CF7BGWW

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-0-80531/overview/

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-0-80870/overview/

Edited by - Tub on 08 Oct 2016 11:50:07 AM
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deez nuts
Buffalo

67 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2016 :  11:53:12 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It says .516 lift with stock rocker arm ratio so wouldn't that be with 1.5/1?

The main reason why I am only looking for power until about 5500 max is because I've read it's hard on these engines to rev much higher. I don't rev that high between gears anyway. I'm a short shifter so either will go with the CC or the Crower. The CC is about $50 less since it is the cam and lifters together in a kit.
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Tub
Sitting Bull

172 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2016 :  12:35:12 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by deez nuts

It says .516 lift with stock rocker arm ratio so wouldn't that be with 1.5/1?

The main reason why I am only looking for power until about 5500 max is because I've read it's hard on these engines to rev much higher. I don't rev that high between gears anyway. I'm a short shifter so either will go with the CC or the Crower. The CC is about $50 less since it is the cam and lifters together in a kit.



The lobe lift is .313. So, if you multiply that times 1.5, you get .470 lift with 1.5 rockers. They use the 1.65 number because the RA4 engines had 1.65 rockers.

http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/cam-specs/Details.aspx?csid=6&sb=2

I've never seen that a cam/lifter "kit" is much cheaper than buying the exact same parts separately. But there are many times big differences in the price of very similar cams from different brands.

For example: the cheapest 041 clone is a Melling SPC-8, which is less than $100 on Ebay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Engine-Camshaft-Stock-MELLING-SPC-8-fits-68-70-Pontiac-Firebird-6-6L-V8-/131527250214?hash=item1e9fa29126:g:e5wAAOSw7XZXgN6J&vxp=mtr

I assume the best price for the Crower Cam Saver lifters is from Summit. But, if you find a better price they will usually match it. Jegs has the same deal.

http://www.jegs.com/i/Crower/258/66056X3-16/10002/-1

There are obviously cheaper lifters out there.

Edited by - Tub on 08 Oct 2016 12:50:16 PM
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deez nuts
Buffalo

67 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2016 :  12:45:55 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dude you know so much about this stuff it's crazy. I really appreciate your help.

I guess the Crower is the highest lift "street cam" then
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Tub
Sitting Bull

172 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2016 :  12:52:35 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by deez nuts

Dude you know so much about this stuff it's crazy. I really appreciate your help.

I guess the Crower is the highest lift "street cam" then



The Melling SPC-8 has the same lift as the CC 041 clone. They're all about .470 lift with 1.5 rockers.
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deez nuts
Buffalo

67 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2016 :  12:55:25 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The Crower I think was listed a little higher lift? My original plan was to get the highest lift possible in a cam that still gave power in the desired RPM range
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deez nuts
Buffalo

67 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2016 :  1:16:41 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Do you mind giving me a part number for a set of rockers you recommend? I will be ordering the Crower cam, lifters and springs you had mentioned. Now need roller tip rockers to go on the 6x-8 heads. I have budgeted around $150.00 for rockers. Or should I just use the original ones?
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Tub
Sitting Bull

172 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2016 :  4:44:29 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by deez nuts

Do you mind giving me a part number for a set of rockers you recommend? I will be ordering the Crower cam, lifters and springs you had mentioned. Now need roller tip rockers to go on the 6x-8 heads. I have budgeted around $150.00 for rockers. Or should I just use the original ones?



For around $150, the best would be the CC roller tips. The Summit price is $151 shipped.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-1451-16/overview/make/pontiac

But,if you buy these you'll also need to buy some poly-locks. These rockers come with the Chevy style nuts. They are not as reliable as poly-locks, properly installed.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Comp-Cams-4600-16-Hi-Tech-Poly-Locks-1-x-7-16-Rocker-Arm-Adjusting-Nut-600-/291862420284?hash=item43f45b1b3c:g:VZEAAOSweWVXfx7V&vxp=mtr

http://www.jegs.com/i/Proform/778/66936/10002/-1

Those I listed are 1" long. Some studs are longer than others. So, if you have too much stud stickin up from the rocker, you may need longer poly-locks. They are available in several lengths.


"...The Crower I think was listed a little higher lift?...

OK, you must be talkin about the 60243. I was talkin about the 041 clones.

http://www.crower.com/pontiac-287-455-v8-ultra-beast-hydraulic-278h.html

The 60243 has .479 lift on the intake lobe, and .494 lift on the exhaust lobe. I doubt very seriously if you'd notice any difference if it had only .470 lift. That is only a tiny difference. The duration & LSA are more important specs than a small amount of lift. But hey, if you want more lift, add the 1.65 rockers, and you'll have more than you need.

http://www.crower.com/camshafts/pontiac/pontiac-287-455-compu-pro-hydraulic-cam-284-hdp.html

Edited by - Tub on 08 Oct 2016 5:28:20 PM
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Blued and Painted
Chief PONTIAC

USA
3404 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2016 :  8:38:43 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Stock gear could be anywhere from 2.56 to 3.90..

Raise rear of car and put on jack stands. Mark both rear tires and drive shaft at 6 o'clock with a crayon. Turn the drive shaft by hand and see how many drive shaft turns to move both rear wheel one turn. Just over 3 turn would be 3.08.. 3 1/2 would be 3.55.. 2 3/4 turns 2.73 and so on..


Bull Nose Formula/ 461/ Q-Jet/
TH400/ 3.08 8.5 / R44TS.

Edited by - Blued and Painted on 08 Oct 2016 8:47:59 PM
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deez nuts
Buffalo

67 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2016 :  2:37:01 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
so I saw butler performance sells the CC roller tips with poly locks included. best to get those or pay extra for a scorpion full roller or crane cams full roller? I think that would be like $270ish. worth the extra money?

and can you share the link for the 041 clone again? couldn't get the link to work.
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deez nuts
Buffalo

67 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2016 :  2:40:11 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Blued and Painted

Stock gear could be anywhere from 2.56 to 3.90..

Raise rear of car and put on jack stands. Mark both rear tires and drive shaft at 6 o'clock with a crayon. Turn the drive shaft by hand and see how many drive shaft turns to move both rear wheel one turn. Just over 3 turn would be 3.08.. 3 1/2 would be 3.55.. 2 3/4 turns 2.73 and so on..



im not really that concerned about what rear gear is because I wont be changing it regardless
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Blued and Painted
Chief PONTIAC

USA
3404 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2016 :  3:08:46 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
un-subscribe.


Bull Nose Formula/ 461/ Q-Jet/
TH400/ 3.08 8.5 / R44TS.
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Steve C.
Crazy Horse

1672 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2016 :  5:00:32 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Internet tid bits (opinions) that might be of interest:


There are a few things you must realize before installing a 041 RA-IV cam:

1.) The 041 cam must be in a vehicle that is equipped with a at least a 3.90, 4.11:1 or4.33:1 rear gear ratio. For that reason, it is not a good idea to put a 041 cam in a 455 engine with less than 10:1 CR (no matter how well the heads flow at 6000 RPM) because a long arm 455 engine is out of breath at 5300 RPM. whereas a 041 cam in a 389 or 400 CI engine is capable of making good power from 5500 to 6400 RPM. You could not get a 041 cam in anything but a 400 CI engine in the 1969-1970 RA-IV vehciles for that reason. All 400 CI RA-IV Firebirds and GTOs had a 3.90:1 gear ratio as standard equipment with a 4.10:1 or 4.33:1 an optional rear gear ratio, even if the vehicle was equipped with an automatic transmission.

Read more if interested....

http://www.pontiaczone.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23353

Edited by - Steve C. on 09 Oct 2016 5:01:16 PM
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deez nuts
Buffalo

67 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2016 :  5:58:50 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Steve C.

Internet tid bits (opinions) that might be of interest:


There are a few things you must realize before installing a 041 RA-IV cam:

1.) The 041 cam must be in a vehicle that is equipped with a at least a 3.90, 4.11:1 or4.33:1 rear gear ratio. For that reason, it is not a good idea to put a 041 cam in a 455 engine with less than 10:1 CR (no matter how well the heads flow at 6000 RPM) because a long arm 455 engine is out of breath at 5300 RPM. whereas a 041 cam in a 389 or 400 CI engine is capable of making good power from 5500 to 6400 RPM. You could not get a 041 cam in anything but a 400 CI engine in the 1969-1970 RA-IV vehciles for that reason. All 400 CI RA-IV Firebirds and GTOs had a 3.90:1 gear ratio as standard equipment with a 4.10:1 or 4.33:1 an optional rear gear ratio, even if the vehicle was equipped with an automatic transmission.

Read more if interested....

http://www.pontiaczone.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23353



So what do you recommend instead? At this point the most attractive cam I've seen is this Crower https://www.crower.com/camshafts/pontiac-287-455-compu-pro-hydraulic-cam-284-hdp.html which is a little less duration than the 041 cam but still has high lift.

If you switch from 1.5/1 rockers to 1.65/1 rockers is your power going up or down in RPM? How drastic of an RPM change? I was thinking of getting the Crower listed above and then getting Comp Cams Roller tip rockers from butler performance and likely go with 1.65/1
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Tub
Sitting Bull

172 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2016 :  6:07:44 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
No offense meant to anyone, BUT, I think that opinion is WAY off !

An 041 cam, in a 400, can not be compared to an 041 cam in a 455. I've run several 455's with the 041 cam. They had PLENTY of low end torque, a smooth idle, and plenty of vac. They would pull hard to 5000rpm, and would easily wind to 5500.

In 3 different cars, I used 3.55, 3.64, & 3.73 gears. Had a TH400 with stock 13" converter in all cars. Left from an 800 rpm idle. Cut good lights and won races.

And I'm not nearly the only guy to run an 041 in a 455. In fact, that may just be the most used 455 cam ever. Unless you are just wanting max upper end hp, I don't understand why so many guys badmouth the 041 cam. From idle to 5000, they seem to perform great.

And about needing more compression. That won't fly. Pontiac had planned to use the 041 grind in the low compression SD455. But, as most of you guys know, because of the new federal emission regs, they dropped back to the 744 grind, which some also say is no good for low compression engines.

I'm sure some of you engine builders can site dyno results, proving how great the XE cams are. But, I think an 041 is PLENTY good for a mild street 455. And for those who don't like the higher adv duration, you can use Howard's version, which has less adv, but the same dur @ .050.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hrs-410051-14/overview/make/pontiac


"... I saw butler performance sells the CC roller tips with poly locks included..."

No, the CC roller tips do NOT come with poly-locks. Only the PRW brand roller tips come with poly-locks. The CC roller tips come with both 3/8 & 7/16 Chevy type nuts.

http://butlerperformance.com/i-24452993-comp-cams-pontiac-1-5-roller-tip-rocker-arm-kit-cca-1451-16.html?ref=category:1234784

http://butlerperformance.com/i-24453499-prw-pontiac-1-52-ratio-roller-tip-rocker-arm-set-prw-0845501-16.html?ref=category:1234784

Most say the CC rockers are much better than the PRW's.

Edited by - Tub on 09 Oct 2016 6:58:58 PM
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deez nuts
Buffalo

67 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2016 :  6:15:20 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The Crower 60243 looks most attractive as I said. I just wish I could find it for less than $160ish. The Comp Cams kits with lifters and timing set are only $250.

..... gotta pay to play though
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Tub
Sitting Bull

172 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2016 :  6:25:26 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by deez nuts

The Crower 60243 looks most attractive as I said. I just wish I could find it for less than $160ish. The Comp Cams kits with lifters and timing set are only $250.

..... gotta pay to play though



This Lunati is very similar to that Crower, and is a few bucks cheaper.

http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=1761&gid=279

The Melling SPC-8 is less than $100. And the Summit 2802 is even cheaper.

If you want a CC, the 51-309-4 is sorta similar to the Crower 60243. It's bewteen $140 & $146. Has .520 lift with 1.65 rockers.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-51-309-4?seid=srese1&cm_mmc=pla-google-_-shopping-_-srese1-_-comp-cams&gclid=Cj0KEQjw1ee_BRD3hK6x993YzeoBEiQA5RH_BFVsM8hzZ60qbx8W7UEVgbjwnQRHx5-Mxln_P1yF9CMaAovG8P8HAQ

https://www.amazon.com/Comp-Cams-51-309-4-COMP-Camshaft/dp/B001G8RCGK

Edited by - Tub on 09 Oct 2016 6:52:21 PM
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Steve C.
Crazy Horse

1672 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2016 :  6:39:17 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"An 041 cam, in a 400, can not be compared to an 041 cam in a 455."

You are correct
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deez nuts
Buffalo

67 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2016 :  6:43:48 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Im nervous about the summit brand parts because with such a price gap it has to be lower quality. That lunati looks like a good competitor but little less lift than the 60243. I guess I should just pull the trigger on the 60243 and be done with it.
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5335 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2016 :  6:47:14 PM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Summit brand parts are, generally, name brand parts repackaged. I'm sure they split the margins or something. Also, summit brand cams have been proven street cams in pontiacs. Lastly, i just sprung for a lunati cam/lifter/spring/retainer/locks kits for a 327 i'm building for my daily driver. It had a comp cams small XE cam in it, but after the clacking of my 284, i didn't want to risk it and swapped it while on the stand. It may have not had the clacking, but whatever, why risk it and swap in the car? Their parts look quality if that means anything, let you know if i have trouble, but again they have a good street rep.
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deez nuts
Buffalo

67 Posts

Posted - 10 Oct 2016 :  12:42:29 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I just ordered the crower 60243 cam and camsaver lifters. Little more costly than other choices but it's the profile I really wanted. Now just to pick rocker arms and pushrods and valve springs
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Tub
Sitting Bull

172 Posts

Posted - 10 Oct 2016 :  02:51:52 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The best rocker arms may be the Crower Stainless Steel units. But, they ain't cheap.

http://www.cnc-motorsports.com/crower-73627-16-enduro-stainless-steel-roller-rockers.html

Alum rockers are cheaper, but I've read that alum will fail much quicker than the stainless.

The best alum, for the street, MAY be the Scorpion Enduro series. Not sure. There are some really cheap Chinese rockers. Don't know if any of them are any good or not.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/scc-scp3052

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/scc-scp1052/overview/
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Steve C.
Crazy Horse

1672 Posts

Posted - 10 Oct 2016 :  09:53:48 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If they're aluminum, and run on the street, their statistical half-life is somewhere in the 15 - 30,000 mile kind of range according to some sources. Others offer more optimistic numbers. Purely a function of number of repetitions. Thousands have seen much more years/mileage out of theirs especially with the low valve lift and light spring pressure involved here. Take a serious look at your actual intended use for the car... a true daily driver or weekend fun vehicle with limited driving. Often it ends up less than the perception provided.

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/hrdp-1305-rocker-arm-comparo/

Edited by - Steve C. on 10 Oct 2016 11:20:23 AM
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deez nuts
Buffalo

67 Posts

Posted - 10 Oct 2016 :  2:57:47 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Will the scorpion full rollers clear stock valve covers?

Itll either be those or the comp cams steel roller tips. The scorpion full rollers would be less strong than the CC roller tips due to the CC being stamped steel. Am I understanding that correctly? What would the power difference be with a full roller vs roller tip if any?
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5335 Posts

Posted - 10 Oct 2016 :  3:13:47 PM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
No, full rollers have 0 flex, they're a chunk of metal. Roller tips are kind of a compromise between stock and full roller, they look like a stock stamped steel with the tip installed. Some have reported the tips in roller tips coming off or breaking.

One user here reported a long time ago the blue coating wearing off his scorpions where the pushrod met the rocker. However, on mine (about 3-4 years ago?) I noticed they had a hardened black insert installed into the rocker where the pushrod meets, so i'd guess that can't happen any more.

Edit: also i had scorpion 1.5s under stock covers with drip rails with an XE262 cam. The 1.5s or 1.6s needed slightly longer pushrods and valve cover spacers, or tall covers, with the XE284.

Edited by - cortcomp on 10 Oct 2016 3:14:39 PM
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Tub
Sitting Bull

172 Posts

Posted - 10 Oct 2016 :  3:36:30 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The 1/4 & 5/16 thick valve cover gaskets will increase clearance with stock covers. Might be enuff.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fel-1627/overview/make/pontiac

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-7590/overview/make/pontiac

http://butlerperformance.com/i-24453575-butler-performance-5-16-thick-high-density-pontiac-valve-cover-gaskets-set-spm-11765.html?ref=category:1234816

http://tinindianperformance.com/pontiac%20valve%20cover%20gaskets.htm


Edited by - Tub on 10 Oct 2016 4:05:04 PM
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deez nuts
Buffalo

67 Posts

Posted - 10 Oct 2016 :  3:41:38 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So what exactly is the advantage if any with the full roller? Like you mentioned they have zero flex but what does that translate to in terms of engine performance? Since I'm not running an outrageous roller cam with insane lift I wouldn't think there's much to be gained.

The price difference is about $100. Looks like the scorpion full rollers are 270 with poly locks. The Comp cams roller tips are 150 plus then 30 or so for poly locks. I also was planning to buy another set of stock length push rods? I saw some of the comp cams roller tips can be bought with push rods included so I might do that
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Tub
Sitting Bull

172 Posts

Posted - 10 Oct 2016 :  3:46:00 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
For a street car, you won't notice any difference in performance between rockers with the same ratio. It's just a matter of how long will they last.

I suppose you could go with the PRW roller tips, change 'em out occasionally, buy new ones and sell the old ones, while they are still good. Total initial purchase price would be cheaper.

https://www.amazon.com/PRW-0845501-Sportsman-Pontiac-287-455/dp/B004L2OWP2

Edited by - Tub on 10 Oct 2016 3:55:11 PM
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deez nuts
Buffalo

67 Posts

Posted - 10 Oct 2016 :  3:55:37 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Id rather pay a little more and not have to worry about them later. I know theres no such thing as a perchance engine that doesn't require extra maintenance and care but I'd like to minimize that. So comparing the Comp cams roller tip vs the scorpion full rollers, whichever is "stronger" and will "last longer" is the one id like.

Also with the stock 1.5/1 ratio can I use the original length push rods
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Tub
Sitting Bull

172 Posts

Posted - 10 Oct 2016 :  4:10:01 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"...with the stock 1.5/1 ratio can I use the original length push rods..."

I'd say that with the roller tips probably so. But, with the full rollers, maybe not. You want your rollers to hit the valve tip close to the center, especially when fully open. If they are very far off center, you'll need differnt length pushrods. There are adjustable pushrods just made for the purpose of measuring the length of pushrods you need.

http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS-Performance-Products/555/80682/10002/-1

http://www.ebay.com/itm/7902-1-Comp-Cams-Magnum-Checking-Pushrod-Length-Checker-8-500-9-800-/381781802252?_trksid=p2349526.m2548.l4275

http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/COM3/79021/N1494.oap?ck=Search_N1494_1438459_-1&pt=N1494&ppt=C0265

Edited by - Tub on 10 Oct 2016 4:24:35 PM
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deez nuts
Buffalo

67 Posts

Posted - 10 Oct 2016 :  4:36:03 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This is getting involved lol

If I buy the rockers in a kit that includes push rods I'd assume they have the correct length ones with the kit right?
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Tub
Sitting Bull

172 Posts

Posted - 10 Oct 2016 :  4:44:04 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by deez nuts

This is getting involved lol

If I buy the rockers in a kit that includes push rods I'd assume they have the correct length ones with the kit right?



Only problem with that is that they don't know what heads you're running, or how much machining has been done to the block and heads. If a lot has been cut off the heads & block it could mean that you may need slightly shorter pushrods.

I think most guys save the pushrod purchase for last, then measure to be sure of the length needed, before ordering.

Edited by - Tub on 10 Oct 2016 4:46:40 PM
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Brian R
Crazy Horse

USA
1672 Posts

Posted - 10 Oct 2016 :  4:49:58 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Read through quickly - I'm at work. This may be repetitious.

* Get rid of the E-Carb
* I ran Hollys for years, great carbs. Been running a Quadrajet from Cliff for about 4 years now and LOVE IT. It is the most maintenance free carb I have ever run and my 461 loves it!
* If you decided to now or in the future go with 1.65 rockers, have the heads milled now to accept them. The holes need to be elongated. You can do it now and still run the 1.5's so its a good time to do it if the heads are still off.
* If you can swing good roller rockers now, go for it. If not, the roller tips are fine and you can upgrade later if you like
* make sure you get the correct springs to match your cam
* Break in the cam with only 1 spring per valve - once break in is done, put the second springs in before going on the road

** Good luck and enjoy - you will love the bottom end on that thing. The torque is awesome!

Edited by - Brian R on 10 Oct 2016 4:51:09 PM
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Steve C.
Crazy Horse

1672 Posts

Posted - 10 Oct 2016 :  4:52:01 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"...measure to be sure of the length needed, before ordering"

Bingo.

And read the rocker arm article I posted regarding flex.

Edited by - Steve C. on 10 Oct 2016 4:57:35 PM
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loosetappet
Sitting Bull

113 Posts

Posted - 10 Oct 2016 :  7:13:16 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by deez nuts

Will the scorpion full rollers clear stock valve covers?

Itll either be those or the comp cams steel roller tips. The scorpion full rollers would be less strong than the CC roller tips due to the CC being stamped steel. Am I understanding that correctly? What would the power difference be with a full roller vs roller tip if any?



I just finished installing Scorpion Enduro roller rockers under stock valve covers. Used the felpro .25 gaskets. No clearance problems at all.
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deez nuts
Buffalo

67 Posts

Posted - 10 Oct 2016 :  8:38:27 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by loosetappet

quote:
Originally posted by deez nuts

Will the scorpion full rollers clear stock valve covers?

Itll either be those or the comp cams steel roller tips. The scorpion full rollers would be less strong than the CC roller tips due to the CC being stamped steel. Am I understanding that correctly? What would the power difference be with a full roller vs roller tip if any?



I just finished installing Scorpion Enduro roller rockers under stock valve covers. Used the felpro .25 gaskets. No clearance problems at all.



Good to know! I just wish they were a bit cheaper. The scorpion full rollers are in fact aluminum right?
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5335 Posts

Posted - 10 Oct 2016 :  9:19:46 PM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Yes, I had the cheaper ones too. Were good. In fact, builder used them on the GTO i have now, no issues.
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