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F-Body International
Tribal Scout

USA
18 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2016 :  07:08:24 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Some of you might've seen that I ended up switching to the Pro-Touring F-Body sway bar in my sway bar comparison thread. Since then, I've been consulting with Dave(79T/A man)@Pro-Touring F-Body and John Paige (NOT A TA) to further develop my front suspension. We ended up deciding that I pull my whole subframe out and do a whole build at the Pro-Touring F-Body shop since I live nearby. Over the next few weeks I'll be posting some pictures and doing a write-up as it progresses. This is going to be as good as it gets for building a factory 2nd gen subframe!

www.pro-touringf-body.com

The following modifications will be done to the subframe...
-Pro-Touring F-Body coil-over install kit
-Pro-Touring F-Body upper control arms
-Pro-Touring F-Body lower control arms (built for coil-over only)
-Pro-Touring F-Body adjustable sway bar
-Pro-Touring F-Body sway bar brace
-Pro-Touring F-Body modified solid body mounts
-ViKing double-adjustable coil-over shocks
-Prothane polyurethane motor/trans mounts
-Turn One Performance Plus steering box
-John Paige (NOT A TA) upper control arm adjustable supports
-John Paige (NOT A TA) lower control arm frame reinforcement kit
-John Paige (NOT A TA) body mount frame reinforcement kit
-John Paige (NOT A TA) sway bar mount upgrade

[URL=http://s1183.photobucket.com/user/jonathonar89/media/WP_20160627_19_42_12_Pro1_zpsg6hg0kdt.jpg.html][/URL]

Edited by - F-Body International on 30 Jul 2016 01:13:23 AM

rkellerjr
Many Feathers

USA
1260 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2016 :  09:06:39 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Nice, looking forward to following this progress. I bought the GT suspension package for my car from Dave w/solid body bushings. Loved the difference it made. I didn't quite like the rear end being so low but, that is just a personal preference in stance, I later went to stock springs to bring it up a bit. Dave was great to work with too.

Rich
1975 TA - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aR86YT69yeY
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F-Body International
Tribal Scout

USA
18 Posts

Posted - 17 Jul 2016 :  10:56:57 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks Rich! I've seen you on the forums over the years but I don't think I've communicated with you as much as some others. Dave said that the sandblasting is complete on the frame so it should be ready for pick up either tomorrow or Tuesday depending on the weather. The car Dave sponsors is racing this week so we won't be able to get to start working on it. Next week should be ready for some progress.
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Phil
The Great White Buffalo

USA
7215 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2016 :  10:12:52 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'll be following this thread with great interest. Are you going with the R&P steering conversion too?

Bowties are for Pee-wee Herman. "Chevy": even the name sounds cheap, but not as cheap as your Pontiac will be with an LS transplant.
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F-Body International
Tribal Scout

USA
18 Posts

Posted - 21 Jul 2016 :  8:40:30 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Phil

I'll be following this thread with great interest. Are you going with the R&P steering conversion too?



No rack and pinion for me. I'll be sticking with a standard GM style steering box. Dave and I, however, are still up in the air about which box I'm going with. There are numerous steering ratios and I need to cough up cash before being able to make a final decision. I also need to get the steering rebuild components as well.

I've been looking at Turn One recently. They make some nice replacement NASCAR style boxes but apparently they're hard to get because of demand sometimes. Those steering boxes range from $775-$2500 so definitely not cheap.

Since I've been working with Dave on this, I've been picking his brain a lot lately. He's been saying that steering is one of the most important parts of being able to utilize a well sorted suspension. After we do the suspension, we'll get to picking out the right steering box.

Dave is continually proving to me and many others that the factory 2nd gen subframe is a great design. You can yield amazing performance gains by simply adding simple things like control arms, sway bars and various other small items. The car that he sponsors runs against Pozzi, RT and many other aftermarket companies on the track.



Update (7/23/2016) - I just purchased a Turn One Performance Plus steering box on ebay. It's 12:1 ratio with 235 T-Bar size. Here is a link to where you can find these...
http://www.turnone-steering.com/#!online-store/ciui/!/Performance-Plus-Model/p/47722335/category=12405583
[URL=http://s1183.photobucket.com/user/jonathonar89/media/WP_20160729_23_20_09_Pro1_zpswnv5yjza.jpg.html][/URL]

Edited by - F-Body International on 30 Jul 2016 01:08:07 AM
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rkellerjr
Many Feathers

USA
1260 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2016 :  10:12:19 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Just got back from vacation, was hoping to see some new pics!

I also used the steering rebuild components from Dave when I did my suspension. Your car is going to drive awesome. I also added (though not from Dave since I got them free) sub-frame connectors which also helped in stability. I didn't see those listed in your post, are you going to add a set?

Rich
1975 TA - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aR86YT69yeY
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F-Body International
Tribal Scout

USA
18 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2016 :  1:20:34 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by rkellerjr

Just got back from vacation, was hoping to see some new pics!

I also used the steering rebuild components from Dave when I did my suspension. Your car is going to drive awesome. I also added (though not from Dave since I got them free) sub-frame connectors which also helped in stability. I didn't see those listed in your post, are you going to add a set?



Welcome back Rich! I hope vacation was great for you.

I probably started this thread a little bit early but I think Dave is going to get started this week. He left yesterday to help Travis at the Motor State challenge. Yesterday was Road Course and today is the Autocross race.

I'm excited just as much as you probably are to see pictures of my subframe build. I know you've had PTFB suspension for a long time. This past year Dave actually updated his GT and Comp springs to have the secondary leaf extend close to the spring eye. He mentioned that having extra material in the front is supposed to help reduce spring wrap.

That's interesting you caught that I left subframe connectors off the list for now. Mounting my frame is going to be somewhat of a different thing than most others have done. The current plan is to use half of a solid PTFB body mount to clamp the frame directly to the body. There will basically be no space between the body and subframe at the mounting points. I have clearance to lower the body like this over the engine because I have a raised 4" cowl induction style fiberglass hood.

I have room for my engine to clear the hood up top because I have a fiberglass VFN 4" cowl induction style hood to clear.

Edited by - F-Body International on 23 Jul 2016 1:21:19 PM
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rkellerjr
Many Feathers

USA
1260 Posts

Posted - 25 Jul 2016 :  3:27:50 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The sub-frame connectors connect inside the front sub-frame (just below the doors) utilizing the body mount and the rear spring perch. Not sure why it wouldn't work with your setup.

Rich
1975 TA - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aR86YT69yeY
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F-Body International
Tribal Scout

USA
18 Posts

Posted - 27 Jul 2016 :  11:56:43 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by rkellerjr

The sub-frame connectors connect inside the front sub-frame (just below the doors) utilizing the body mount and the rear spring perch. Not sure why it wouldn't work with your setup.



When I had PTFB subframe connectors before, they actually clamped on the outside of the subframe. I was talking with Dave last week and he said that his will work with what I'm doing. For now, I'm leaving subframe connectors out becuase I have a lot to spend on other parts. My car doesn't have brakes or wheels as of the moment. Just sold my snowflake wheels yesterday.

Got some more parts ordered this week...
Turn One Performance Plus steering box (12:1 ratio)
Pro-Touring F-Body True-steer bump steer correction kit
Pro-Touring F-Body performance steering rebuild kit
Pro-Touring F-Body adjustable pro g-braces
John Paige (NOT A TA) firewall reinforcement kit for g-brace mounts
Prothane polyurethane engine and transmission mounts
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Phil
The Great White Buffalo

USA
7215 Posts

Posted - 28 Jul 2016 :  01:20:09 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Fwiw, if those firewall braces are anything like the Adams V-braces, I was never a fan of those. If you hit something hard those things may end up harpooning you or your passenger.

Bowties are for Pee-wee Herman. "Chevy": even the name sounds cheap, but not as cheap as your Pontiac will be with an LS transplant.
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F-Body International
Tribal Scout

USA
18 Posts

Posted - 28 Jul 2016 :  9:23:50 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Phil

Fwiw, if those firewall braces are anything like the Adams V-braces, I was never a fan of those. If you hit something hard those things may end up harpooning you or your passenger.



There's plenty of other things to worry about passing into the interior in the event of an accident. Steel hoods are probably the worst of anything passing through the interior. This is also a secondary reason for me to buy the fiberglass hood I have.

Yes, PTFB g-braces are like the Herb Adams but better. Again, we're reinforcing the area across the cowl panel where these mount. G-braces along with solid body mounts are one of the most significant modifications you can make for chassis stiffening.
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Phil
The Great White Buffalo

USA
7215 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2016 :  09:36:39 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The problem has always been that the braces are connecting meat (subframe-Upper A-arm mounts) at one end to no meat (flimsy sheet metal cowl area) at the other end.

The hoods are designed to buckle from the factory. The aftermarket V-braces and copycats are not. It certainly should be a consideration when adding them. I had thought about modifying them or even making my own so that they would have a buckling or failing point incorporated. Wouldn't be too difficult to figure out a solution. But the wimpy sheet metal cowl attachment point still needs addressing. This is just going to be a failure area to crack, bend or wrinkle later if it's not strengthened in some way.

Bowties are for Pee-wee Herman. "Chevy": even the name sounds cheap, but not as cheap as your Pontiac will be with an LS transplant.
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F-Body International
Tribal Scout

USA
18 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2016 :  11:18:36 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Phil

The problem has always been that the braces are connecting meat (subframe-Upper A-arm mounts) at one end to no meat (flimsy sheet metal cowl area) at the other end.

The hoods are designed to buckle from the factory. The aftermarket V-braces and copycats are not. It certainly should be a consideration when adding them. I had thought about modifying them or even making my own so that they would have a buckling or failing point incorporated. Wouldn't be too difficult to figure out a solution. But the wimpy sheet metal cowl attachment point still needs addressing. This is just going to be a failure area to crack, bend or wrinkle later if it's not strengthened in some way.




Thanks for the comments Phil but I think I'll be good for what concerns you bring up. If you feel that you can build a good design for whatever makes you happy then go for it. Make a thread and show it off. I'm not against someone making there own parts. Don't take this the wrong way. If anything that's admirable if you can build your own design.

Here's a quick review on the standard model PTFB g-braces...
-Install was easy.
-Great price.
-I've driven a few years and thousands of miles with the standard model g-braces with no firewall reinforcement...no issues with the cowl panel at all.
-Installing these braces actually stopped body flex noises I was experiencing on the street. My car is a t-top body so that says a lot for some people.
[URL=http://s1183.photobucket.com/user/jonathonar89/media/IMG_20111018_115323.jpg.html][/URL]
[URL=http://s1183.photobucket.com/user/jonathonar89/media/IMG_20111018_115331.jpg.html][/URL]


As mentioned before, I'm now upgrading to PTFB Dave's pro model g-braces along with John Paige's cowl reinforcement and upper control arm reinforcement kits. John's cowl kit reinforces the whole cowl panel across the top of the firewall where you mount the g-braces and the upper control arm kit triangulates the front control arm bolt to the subframe. PTFB's pro model g-braces are completely

Many on this forum probably haven't seen or know about the Pro-Touring F-Body front coil-over kit. It's not currently listed on the website but it's another industry-exclusive design Dave has come up with. The upper frame mounting piece reinforces the upper control arm mount and chassis area where the spring locates. I don't want this to sound like a sales pitch but the PTFB coil-over kit has some great features no one else has.

I'll get you guys updated on how everything is going once I gather up some pictures to display.
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Blued and Painted
Chief PONTIAC

USA
3405 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2016 :  11:32:53 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Does it have solid sub frame too body mounts?


Bull Nose Formula/ 461/ Q-Jet/
TH400/ 3.08 8.5 / R44TS.
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F-Body International
Tribal Scout

USA
18 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2016 :  12:15:08 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Blued and Painted

Does it have solid sub frame too body mounts?



Yes, I've had them for a long time.


For anyone interested in checking out some of the parts that John Paige makes, check out this thread...
http://www.pro-touring.com/threads/119556-2nd-gen-F-body-G-Brace-install-sub-frame-and-body-modifications-for-extreme-use
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Phil
The Great White Buffalo

USA
7215 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2016 :  08:14:00 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Glad to see the cowl stiffeners/reinforcements in the new design. That's what was needed with the Adams V-braces back in the day.

Bowties are for Pee-wee Herman. "Chevy": even the name sounds cheap, but not as cheap as your Pontiac will be with an LS transplant.
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