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 Crower 60242, 60916, or summit 2802
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phil400
Cochise

Canada
456 Posts

Posted - 12 Jun 2016 :  09:46:41 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
.040 over 400, 9.5~10-1 comp, st-10 4speed, 3.42 gear which one would work best?

78T/A 4-SPEED Marty blue 400/milled 6x-4's/268H,comp roller tip rockers/ performer Q-jet/RA manifolds 2.25" exhaust with x-pipe/ mine since '99 3rd & final owner as long as I'm alive
"sometimes I do what I want to do,rest of the time I do what I have to"

phil400
Cochise

Canada
456 Posts

Posted - 12 Jun 2016 :  12:58:46 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Nobody wants to touch another cam question lol...anyways I guess all I'm asking is 3.42 enough gear for either of these cams?

78T/A 4-SPEED Marty blue 400/milled 6x-4's/268H,comp roller tip rockers/ performer Q-jet/RA manifolds 2.25" exhaust with x-pipe/ mine since '99 3rd & final owner as long as I'm alive
"sometimes I do what I want to do,rest of the time I do what I have to"
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5335 Posts

Posted - 12 Jun 2016 :  7:47:15 PM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
People always recommend the 2802, i think it's a "you can't go wrong" cam?
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Tub
Sitting Bull

172 Posts

Posted - 12 Jun 2016 :  8:03:06 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Since the 2802 has more adv dur, I wouldn't run it without Rhoads lifters.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-2802?seid=srese1&gclid=CjwKEAjwkPS6BRD2ioKR7K245jASJAD1ZqHOx-l49T-yl1ti8n3HBKWBb7gA0OMxKvcUr_vgPior9BoCLyHw_wcB

With reg type lifters, I'd go with one of the Crowers--don't see how you could tell any difference in those 2. The specs are almost identical.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cro-60916?seid=srese1&gclid=CjwKEAjwkPS6BRD2ioKR7K245jASJAD1ZqHOwxICf30l-U5GE32Znb-gJICXHOQZ0FpoAEbmCFygXxoCz7Xw_wcB

http://www.cnc-motorsports.com/crower-60242-hydraulic-flat-tappet-camshaft.html


Edited by - Tub on 12 Jun 2016 8:06:00 PM
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Steve C.
Crazy Horse

1675 Posts

Posted - 13 Jun 2016 :  09:48:43 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Take a look at the ovelrlap and it's effect.

From the link below....

"At the end of the exhaust stroke and the beginning of the intake stroke both the intake and exhaust valves are open at the same time. This period of time (in degrees) is know as the Overlap Period. The overlap period has a profound influence on the running characteristics of the engine. It effects both the low speed and high speed characteristics the engine."

David Vizard has suggested hot street performance might be 50-75 degrees overlap, and for a daily driven low rpm performance 30-55 degrees overlap. But that's probably assuming a 350 cid Chevy. But some might suggest 60 degrees overlap in a street performance solid lifter 400 cid Pontiac. Remember the amount of cubic inches will have an effect.

Note a Comp XE268H cam with 54 degrees overlap falls at the top of the daily driver range and the bottom of the hot street range. Again this probably in a 350 Chevy.

http://members.uia.net/pkelley2/Overlap.html

The Summit 2802 cam has 72.5 degrees overlap
The Crower 60916 has 59.5 degrees overlap
The Crower 60242 has 59 degrees overlap.

http://wallaceracing.com/overlap-calc.php

Also keep in mind a typical 2-valve cylinder head responds to high valve lift. Run as much valve lift as you can as long as it's mechanically achievable or cost prohibitive for any necessary changes.

Edited by - Steve C. on 13 Jun 2016 10:09:17 AM
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67drake
Sitting Duck

Azerbaijan
1501 Posts

Posted - 13 Jun 2016 :  10:17:57 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tub

Since the 2802 has more adv dur, I wouldn't run it without Rhoads lifters.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-2802?seid=srese1&gclid=CjwKEAjwkPS6BRD2ioKR7K245jASJAD1ZqHOx-l49T-yl1ti8n3HBKWBb7gA0OMxKvcUr_vgPior9BoCLyHw_wcB

With reg type lifters, I'd go with one of the Crowers--don't see how you could tell any difference in those 2. The specs are almost identical.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cro-60916?seid=srese1&gclid=CjwKEAjwkPS6BRD2ioKR7K245jASJAD1ZqHOwxICf30l-U5GE32Znb-gJICXHOQZ0FpoAEbmCFygXxoCz7Xw_wcB

http://www.cnc-motorsports.com/crower-60242-hydraulic-flat-tappet-camshaft.html





You can't always go by the duration (especially advertised duration,as different cam companys give duration at different lifts). LSA comes into play also.
And no,I'm not starting a "Cam War"
I have a 60262 in my 400,and it runs great. From what I know,it's pretty much identical to the 60916. I can't comment on the 2402,as I have no experience with it.


71' GTO Original 400 M20 3.23 posi
13.95@102.1 MPH on street tires

Edited by - 67drake on 13 Jun 2016 10:32:00 AM
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Steve C.
Crazy Horse

1675 Posts

Posted - 13 Jun 2016 :  10:24:04 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
From a discussion regarding CAMSHAFT OVERLAP VS LSA (LOBE SEPARATION ANGLE)....

The whole idea of starting with some given LSA as a starting point, simply makes no sense at all. Here's why: LSA has no value at all, in and of itself, because of the fact that it is "overlap" that defines an engine's operational characteristics. And LSA is merely a "by-product" of that overlap. In fact, Comp Cams guru Billy Godbold and I share the same philosophy about that. And he said this:

"LSA doesn't mean anything except for how it affects the camshaft centerlines. You determine the centerlines, which determines OVERLAP, and THAT has performance effects."

Edited by - Steve C. on 13 Jun 2016 10:27:29 AM
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67drake
Sitting Duck

Azerbaijan
1501 Posts

Posted - 13 Jun 2016 :  10:29:48 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Steve,if your last post was in regards to mine. I was commenting on Tubs comment about not going with the 2802 because of the advertised duration.


71' GTO Original 400 M20 3.23 posi
13.95@102.1 MPH on street tires
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Steve C.
Crazy Horse

1675 Posts

Posted - 13 Jun 2016 :  1:31:29 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Even evaluating overlap using the seat duration (advertised) can be off some. As suggested here most cam manufacturers differ in where they start and finish measuring for advertised duration. Some start at .004-inch lift, some at .008-inch and some measure it somewhere in between. I'm not positive but I think Summit (Crane) rates their cam at .004" tappet lift whereas Comp uses .006".
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Tub
Sitting Bull

172 Posts

Posted - 13 Jun 2016 :  3:15:06 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"The Summit 2802 cam has 72.5 degrees overlap
The Crower 60916 has 59.5 degrees overlap
The Crower 60242 has 59 degrees overlap."


Whether you go by the adv duration, the dur @ .050 lift, or the overlap, it appears to me that the Summit 2802 is more cam than the 2 Crower cams listed. If this is not the case, somebody please explain it to me.

So, therefore, I still say that, in a 400 engine, the Rhoads lifters will give the 2802 Summit a smoother idle, plus more low end torque and vacuum, than with regular type lifters. But, if ya'll think either of the Crower cams are actually bigger than the Summit cam, because of the different way the adv dur is figured, then I don't reckin there is any way to know what the heck any of these cams will do in a particular engine, without putting it in and either doing some dyno or track testing.

I don't know if I'll ever be able to stay out of these cam discussions or not. They are very tempting. But, they ALMOST ALWAYS end up in a disagreement of some kind. And hey, I'm definitely no cam expert, and have never had any of my engines on a dyno. And, I've never run any of these 3 cams. So, anything I say is nothing more than a guess.


"...I have a 60262 in my 400,and it runs great. From what I know,it's pretty much identical to the 60916. I can't comment on the 2402,as I have no experience with it."

I assume the 60262 & 2402 are both typos ?

The closest thing I've run to the Summit 2802 is a Pontiac 744. It ran mid 13's in a '69 GTO, with 3.90 gears, a 2.20 1st gear Muncie, and the factory RA3 engine. That's not very quick by today's standards. So, I would assume that any of the 3 cams listed above MAY run quicker.

Edited by - Tub on 13 Jun 2016 3:29:04 PM
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phil400
Cochise

Canada
456 Posts

Posted - 13 Jun 2016 :  3:59:45 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Drake what's your comp ratio? I've seen your youtube clip and I'm probably going to go with the 60242.

78T/A 4-SPEED Marty blue 400/milled 6x-4's/268H,comp roller tip rockers/ performer Q-jet/RA manifolds 2.25" exhaust with x-pipe/ mine since '99 3rd & final owner as long as I'm alive
"sometimes I do what I want to do,rest of the time I do what I have to"
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Steve C.
Crazy Horse

1675 Posts

Posted - 13 Jun 2016 :  5:12:06 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"CAM PROFILE INTENSITY"

The HYDRAULIC INTENSITY may be computed by subtracting duration at .050" cam lift from duration at .004" cam lift. The Summit cam with a duration of 298 rated degrees @.004" cam lift and a duration of 224 degrees at .050" cam lift has a HYDRAULIC INTENSITY of 74 degrees. The Crower 60242 is about 59 degrees. About, because that number is a bit sqewed as they rate their cam at .006" tappet lift. The shorter the number the more aggressive the cam is according to Harvey Crane.

Three degrees difference on the income duration at .050" between the two cams, but one has more valve lift.

Edited by - Steve C. on 13 Jun 2016 5:15:13 PM
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Phil
The Great White Buffalo

USA
7219 Posts

Posted - 13 Jun 2016 :  8:09:54 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I still miss Nunzi's way: "make it like-a-this".

Bowties are for Pee-wee Herman. "Chevy": even the name sounds cheap, but not as cheap as your Pontiac will be with an LS transplant.
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fbird1969
Sitting Bull

170 Posts

Posted - 13 Jun 2016 :  8:38:30 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I ran the 60916 in my 400 for a while. When I degreed it, it came out a little bit smaller in duration than the listed specs of the 60242. IIRC it was something like 275 @ .006 and 220 @ .050 intake. Either the 60916 or the 60242 would be perfect IMO. But not the summit. I ran the 2801 and felt like the 60916 was snappier everywhere. This was with a m20 and 3.31 so with a 3.42 you should be fine.

Edited by - fbird1969 on 13 Jun 2016 8:41:58 PM
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Steve C.
Crazy Horse

1675 Posts

Posted - 13 Jun 2016 :  9:08:31 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"make it like-a-this".

He would of said the "2403"

288 / 302
222 / 232
113 LS

And Crower would say the 60242.



Edited by - Steve C. on 13 Jun 2016 9:09:20 PM
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Phil
The Great White Buffalo

USA
7219 Posts

Posted - 13 Jun 2016 :  9:18:58 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hmmmm.....I'm thinking you meant the 2043H/L.

But those specs look like the 2041H/L which was a favorite of mine for 400's

Bowties are for Pee-wee Herman. "Chevy": even the name sounds cheap, but not as cheap as your Pontiac will be with an LS transplant.
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Steve C.
Crazy Horse

1675 Posts

Posted - 13 Jun 2016 :  9:32:13 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Opps, I meant to say the 2041. Thanks.

288
222
113
.4640

http://ronspontiacpage.com/reference-pages/nunzi.htm

Or something from Bullet Racing Cams that is similar. Order it with whatever Lobe separation desired. And the amount of extra exhaust duration to suit the cylinder head exhaust-to-intake flow ratio.

http://www.bulletcams.com/Masters/Hlobes.htm

H270/306
270
222
.3060

Edited by - Steve C. on 13 Jun 2016 9:39:37 PM
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phil400
Cochise

Canada
456 Posts

Posted - 13 Jun 2016 :  9:49:05 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks fbird1969, and thanks to everyone.

78T/A 4-SPEED Marty blue 400/milled 6x-4's/268H,comp roller tip rockers/ performer Q-jet/RA manifolds 2.25" exhaust with x-pipe/ mine since '99 3rd & final owner as long as I'm alive
"sometimes I do what I want to do,rest of the time I do what I have to"
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67drake
Sitting Duck

Azerbaijan
1501 Posts

Posted - 15 Jun 2016 :  09:32:07 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tub

"The Summit 2802 cam has 72.5 degrees overlap
The Crower 60916 has 59.5 degrees overlap
The Crower 60242 has 59 degrees overlap."


Whether you go by the adv duration, the dur @ .050 lift, or the overlap, it appears to me that the Summit 2802 is more cam than the 2 Crower cams listed. If this is not the case, somebody please explain it to me.

So, therefore, I still say that, in a 400 engine, the Rhoads lifters will give the 2802 Summit a smoother idle, plus more low end torque and vacuum, than with regular type lifters. But, if ya'll think either of the Crower cams are actually bigger than the Summit cam, because of the different way the adv dur is figured, then I don't reckin there is any way to know what the heck any of these cams will do in a particular engine, without putting it in and either doing some dyno or track testing.

I don't know if I'll ever be able to stay out of these cam discussions or not. They are very tempting. But, they ALMOST ALWAYS end up in a disagreement of some kind. And hey, I'm definitely no cam expert, and have never had any of my engines on a dyno. And, I've never run any of these 3 cams. So, anything I say is nothing more than a guess.


"...I have a 60262 in my 400,and it runs great. From what I know,it's pretty much identical to the 60916. I can't comment on the 2402,as I have no experience with it."

I assume the 60262 & 2402 are both typos ?

The closest thing I've run to the Summit 2802 is a Pontiac 744. It ran mid 13's in a '69 GTO, with 3.90 gears, a 2.20 1st gear Muncie, and the factory RA3 engine. That's not very quick by today's standards. So, I would assume that any of the 3 cams listed above MAY run quicker.



Yes I typo'ed on the cam product #'s.
I was just pointing out that you said to run Rhodes based on advertised duration. I was just pointing out that advertised duration can be misleading because of different companys using durations at different lifts AND LSA can come into play.
I Assumed you meant lots of duration= more overlap,therefore needing Rhodes lifters. BUT 2 cams,with the same duration and lobe profiles, will idle and act different if they are ground with a different LSA.


71' GTO Original 400 M20 3.23 posi
13.95@102.1 MPH on street tires

Edited by - 67drake on 15 Jun 2016 09:38:42 AM
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67drake
Sitting Duck

Azerbaijan
1501 Posts

Posted - 15 Jun 2016 :  09:33:38 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by phil400

Drake what's your comp ratio? I've seen your youtube clip and I'm probably going to go with the 60242.



9.6:1


71' GTO Original 400 M20 3.23 posi
13.95@102.1 MPH on street tires
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Tub
Sitting Bull

172 Posts

Posted - 15 Jun 2016 :  2:08:00 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"...the Crowers--don't see how you could tell any difference in those 2. The specs are almost identical."

http://www.cnc-motorsports.com/crower-60242-hydraulic-flat-tappet-camshaft.html

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cro-60916?seid=srese1&cm_mmc=pla-google-_-shopping-_-srese1-_-crower&gclid=Cj0KEQjw-YO7BRDwi6Stp7T296ABEiQAD6iWMXlKO3ng1pjPO_liyerwFKWGnpGcdKWATtf0Rkgg71IaAuyY8P8HAQ


I really can't understand why Crower would offer 2 cams as close together as these 2 are.

Both have 221/229 dur @ .050 lift & both have a 112 LSA.

Total lift is .456/.458 vs .455/.470.

Adv dur is 280/286 vs 278/289.

Crower labels the 60242 as a Performance Level 3 cam, but the 60916 as a Level 4 cam.

http://www.crower.com/media/pdf/2008b/126-128.pdf

Is this slight amount of lift and/or adv dur difference enuff to actually make a measurable difference in performance ? How about overlap difference between the two ? Idle quality ? Vacuum ? Low end torque ? Mid-range power ? Upper end power ?


So, some of you cam experts please tell me exactly what performance difference there would be, between these two.

Thanks !

Edited by - Tub on 15 Jun 2016 2:23:32 PM
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phil400
Cochise

Canada
456 Posts

Posted - 15 Jun 2016 :  5:53:40 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Seems summit doesn't list the 60242, I may end up going with the 60916 since I'm going to bw ordering most if not all my parts from them.

78T/A 4-SPEED Marty blue 400/milled 6x-4's/268H,comp roller tip rockers/ performer Q-jet/RA manifolds 2.25" exhaust with x-pipe/ mine since '99 3rd & final owner as long as I'm alive
"sometimes I do what I want to do,rest of the time I do what I have to"
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Steve C.
Crazy Horse

1675 Posts

Posted - 15 Jun 2016 :  7:40:47 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Crower 60242

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cro-60242
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phil400
Cochise

Canada
456 Posts

Posted - 15 Jun 2016 :  8:11:40 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Cool thanks man

78T/A 4-SPEED Marty blue 400/milled 6x-4's/268H,comp roller tip rockers/ performer Q-jet/RA manifolds 2.25" exhaust with x-pipe/ mine since '99 3rd & final owner as long as I'm alive
"sometimes I do what I want to do,rest of the time I do what I have to"
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67drake
Sitting Duck

Azerbaijan
1501 Posts

Posted - 16 Jun 2016 :  08:38:08 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tub

"...the Crowers--don't see how you could tell any difference in those 2. The specs are almost identical."


So, some of you cam experts please tell me exactly what performance difference there would be, between these two.

Thanks !



This has come up many times over the years. I don't think I've ever seen anyone who knows. I asked Ken Brewer at PPR himself what the difference was when I was picking my cam,he couldn't tell me either.


71' GTO Original 400 M20 3.23 posi
13.95@102.1 MPH on street tires
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Steve C.
Crazy Horse

1675 Posts

Posted - 16 Jun 2016 :  09:38:25 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I suspect the "Compu-Pro" series has different lobe acceleration/ramp rates, and involve computer enhancement or something to that effect. If you were to call Crower and obtain a computerized lobe analysis for each cam you will find the duration checked at the seven different positions of lobe lift would be slightly different. For example the duration at 0.200" lift would probably be 2-3 degrees different between the two lobes, yet their .050" duration is the same. Duration is checked at .005, .010, .020, .050, .100, .200 and .300 lift. Also the opening and closing velocity speeds will be different, they are checked at three positions both on the opening side and the closing side.

Related, to help evaluate two different lobes it's nice to have the 0.200" duration available as published by Comp Cams and with the UltraDyne lobe at Bullet Racing Cams. Also as a reminder Crower can also do a custom cam to suit your specific needs rather than limit yourself to the "Pontiac section" of their catalog.
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Steve C.
Crazy Horse

1675 Posts

Posted - 16 Jun 2016 :  09:58:26 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The cams from Summit ? As of a few years ago even though Crane had their own cam grinding shop CMC still made some of the cams sold under the Crane name. At that time Crane had the contract for the Summit brand cams. Crane also made some cams sold under the Wolverine name. Those Summit cams could be produced by CMC or Crane, hence the rumored Wolverine Summit connection. Again this was a few years ago, things could be different today. That said if you want to compare seat duration specs for a "Summit" cam I still suggest they are the same as a "Crane" cam.
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67drake
Sitting Duck

Azerbaijan
1501 Posts

Posted - 16 Jun 2016 :  10:19:21 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Steve C.

I suspect



Me too! I've also heard the 60242 might be a more modern ground lobe profile as compared to the 60916,but I've never seen any proof. I'm sure somebody more ambitious/smarter than me could figure it out.
I think I spent more time researching for my perfect cam,than I did finding my wife. I both cases,I'm very happy with the end results!


71' GTO Original 400 M20 3.23 posi
13.95@102.1 MPH on street tires
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Steve C.
Crazy Horse

1675 Posts

Posted - 16 Jun 2016 :  11:17:50 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Harold Brookshire was a genius with opening and closing a valve. After UltraDyne closed he was at Lunati with their "Voodoo" series, but he left there as well. Before they closed their doors Jim Butler used sell more UltraDyne cams than almost anyone, he was one of Harold's largest customers. Jim once touted the UltraDyne 280/288H would produce 1 BHP/CID with 9.5 compression. In the old UltraDyne catalog within the Pontiac section regarding the 280/288H cam, "Great street performance, mild lope, small SS converter a plus, power 1500-5500."

280/288
223/231
110 LS
.463 / .485

http://www.bulletcams.com/Masters/ultradynemasters.html
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Tub
Sitting Bull

172 Posts

Posted - 16 Jun 2016 :  8:27:34 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Steve C.

Crower 60242

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cro-60242



The 60916 is over $20 cheaper. Summit will usually meet or beat a better price.

http://autoplicity.com/278677-crower-60916-camshafts?1&gclid=Cj0KEQjwnIm7BRDSs42KxLS8-6YBEiQAfDWP6K3ZKLguOf_yGhDWYP9kpdLXyt-aGBWlZhEVRjBeRFIaAl9u8P8HAQ
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loosetappet
Sitting Bull

113 Posts

Posted - 17 Jun 2016 :  07:49:03 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Steve C.

Harold Brookshire was a genius with opening and closing a valve. After UltraDyne closed he was at Lunati with their "Voodoo" series, but he left there as well. Before they closed their doors Jim Butler used sell more UltraDyne cams than almost anyone, he was one of Harold's largest customers. Jim once touted the UltraDyne 280/288H would produce 1 BHP/CID with 9.5 compression. In the old UltraDyne catalog within the Pontiac section regarding the 280/288H cam, "Great street performance, mild lope, small SS converter a plus, power 1500-5500."

280/288
223/231
110 LS
.463 / .485

http://www.bulletcams.com/Masters/ultradynemasters.html



Also in the Lunati catalog, looks like same grind.
http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=1760&gid=278
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Steve C.
Crazy Horse

1675 Posts

Posted - 17 Jun 2016 :  09:17:42 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The Lunati 10510313 lobes certainly look the same. So if interested in these lobes one can order it out of their catalog. Or again if interested call Bullet Racing and discuss it for options, such as paring the intake lobe with a different exhaust lobe if desired, or maybe changing it from a 110 lobe separation to a wider lobe separation.

A fwiw, I recently had to replace the cam in my Trans Am. We called bullet for a new one and had it made in less than two weeks. Same lobes as previously but changed from a 110 lobe separation to a 112 LS.
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