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79FORMULA400
Buffalo

USA
75 Posts

Posted - 16 Mar 2016 :  01:06:53 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
As some of you who have read my build thread know, I am swapping my 79 Formula 400 to a Super T10. Currently the Car is setup with a TH350. Originally the car was a 301/4 speed, So I still have the clutch pedal. I have a 2.43 First Gear Super T10 that is going in in place of the TH-350. I just sold my truck, So its finally time to get this project underway. I have a few Questions for the 4 speed guys on the site or anyone who has finished this swap before.

1) The flywheel. The engine in my car is from a 1973 Catilina (400 2bbl originally). I have been doing some research about the Small VS. Large Crank register for the Flywheel. Because my engine is a 1973 I need the 2.75 Crank Register Diameter Flywheel?

What is the best brand and best bang for the buck? Hayes? Centerforce? How about this one from Summit SFI approved and all. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-700181 Not bad at 265 bucks either.

2) The Pilot Bushing/Bearing Does anyone have the part number for the correct pilot bushing for a Pontiac application? I have found the Timken #202SS double-sealed pilot bearing from Cortcomp's "Advanced Clutch Theory" Thread. Any other Part Numbers?

3)The Transmission Mount and Crossmember Are the TH350 and Super T10 the same length? I already have a TH400 style 6.5" long 32 spline yoke in my cart on summit. My question is will the ST10 bolt right in place of the TH350? I assume I will need to order a transmission mount for the ST10 to replace the old one. Will the Crossmember be in the same position? Im hoping the Driveshaft wont need to be shortened?

As for the rest of the swap I think I have everything planned out. I plan on using an 11" MCLeod Super Street Pro Clutch Kits ($300) rated for 500hp. I found a reproduction Bellhousing from Firebirdcentral.com for 289 bucks with the Dust boot, Metal dust cover, and all the bellhousing bolts. I plan on using the Factory Mechanical clutch linkage from the same site as well ($150 for the full install kit). While the Drive-shaft is out it will be getting new U Joints as well. I plan on finding a Hurst Competition Plus shifter as well to shift it with. If anyone is selling a Bellhousing or Hurst Comp Plus shifter for a ST10 I have no problems buying either of those used. OR if anyone has leftover parts (Flywheel, Clutch linkage parts, throwout bearing) they would like to sell let me know as well. I plan on ordering all of this by the end of the week So I can get started on this project ASAP.

Any and All input is appreciated.
Thanks,
Byron

1979 Formula 400 WS6, 1973 400 engine 4X Heads. Summit 2801 Cam, 8AN Fuel System,Edelbrock Performer MSD Dist, 6AL-2 Holley 750 Double Pumper,Super T-10, McLeod Super Street Pro, LSD Rear.

Edited by - 79FORMULA400 on 16 Mar 2016 01:14:49 AM

cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5338 Posts

Posted - 16 Mar 2016 :  09:32:48 AM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
1) Always best to measure, but pretty sure all 400's small register. I had nothing but issues with my hayes, very little bolt head clearance. This one was super close to stock, $178, great guy:
http://kajunjon.com/flywheel_clutchkits.htm

2) Do you want a bushing or bearing? I think i went with a bushing from napa or summit iirc.

3) I THINK you'll be fine from th350 to T10 and same position. However, if you need a driveshaft shortened, it's fine because then you know it's perfect, not too far in or too far out, good peace of mind. I've had it done like $200, usually they'll just make you up a new one with better tubing that whatever you're using.

On your linkage, even new, twist it by hand and find a way to eliminate ALL of the play, if any. A little slop there translates to a lot of pedal travel lost.
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79FORMULA400
Buffalo

USA
75 Posts

Posted - 16 Mar 2016 :  3:49:11 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That's not a bad price at all. He lists the flywheel to work on Pontiac applications (350-455) from 1964 to 1976 with the 2.75 crank register hole. Im assuming 76-79 is the small register hole. He also states that he makes an adapter or insert to take up the extra space in the large register flywheel. The auction on eBay just sold out of flywheels within an hour ago. I will have to email him or hopefully he re-runs his eBay add soon. Even with shipping the flywheel comes out to 225 bucks which is still cheaper than the summit flywheel. Does he ship his flywheel with bolts? Should I just re use my grade 8 bolts that are in my car right now that hold the flex plate in or buy the $30 ARP 12 point ones?

I really prefer a bearing over a bushing. They seem to do better than the bushing with not tightening up when they warm up (from what I have seen/heard). I will probably buy the TIMKEN that summit lists and give that a try.

Yeah 2-300 seems to be the going rate for drive-shaft building. I would prefer to not have to go that route, hopefully everything bolts up.

If I find play in the linkage how do you suggest to fix it? Sliding tubing over it and welding it up for support? It would be nice if someone would make a linkage kit with Heim Joints and threaded rod. I guess at that point it would be just as economical to buy an internal hydraulic throwout kit

Thanks for the info! Kajun Jon Seems to have his stuff together with his flywheels and from the looks of his website, he knows what he is doing with this stuff.

\

1979 Formula 400 WS6, 1973 400 engine 4X Heads. Summit 2801 Cam, 8AN Fuel System,Edelbrock Performer MSD Dist, 6AL-2 Holley 750 Double Pumper,Super T-10, McLeod Super Street Pro, LSD Rear.
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79FORMULA400
Buffalo

USA
75 Posts

Posted - 17 Mar 2016 :  12:29:59 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Just ordered my flywheel from Kajun Jon, 224 shipped WITH the insert (Only an extra 15 bucks) in case I have the small register flywheel. Great company to buy from, will definitely be doing business with them again. Ordered all the other Parts Last night as well from Summit and firebird central (Clutch, Pilot bushing, T10 Seal Kit, Output Yoke, Conversion U-Joints, Hurst Shifter Install Kit, Bellhousing, Clutch Linkage kit, and a few other MISC. things)
This Project should be moving right along here in a few days!

1979 Formula 400 WS6, 1973 400 engine 4X Heads. Summit 2801 Cam, 8AN Fuel System,Edelbrock Performer MSD Dist, 6AL-2 Holley 750 Double Pumper,Super T-10, McLeod Super Street Pro, LSD Rear.
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Tub
Sitting Bull

172 Posts

Posted - 17 Mar 2016 :  8:55:34 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"...Yeah 2-300 seems to be the going rate for drive-shaft building.."


In case anybody needs a driveshaft built, I just bought a PST 49" shaft for about $150. It's a balanced 3" tube, with 1310 joints. If you don't have a slip yoke that uses a 1310 joint, you'll need to buy either a new yoke(about $45 on Ebay), or a conversion joint. May also need a conversion joint for the other end. My car has a 12-bolt, which has the small Chevy 1310 type pinion yoke. But, my Pontiac slip yoke uses the bigger joint(1344 or S44 or whatever). So, I ordered a GMB conversion joint for about $10.

The PST shafts are sold by several vendors, for around $150 shipped, and come in 48, 49, 50 and other lengths.

https://jet.com/product/detail/8e0494bffbc14e5eb037dd7b543b2bb1?jcmp=pla:ggl:All_Products_Catch_All:All_Products:na:na:na:na:na:2&code=PLA15&k_clickid=a0f2c017-f152-4029-a2ba-ad8c43b5f0dd&abkId=403-15&gclid=CjwKEAjwq6m3BRCP7IfMq6Oo9gESJACRc0bNW0XC04XKbjJnfdpB0vDBGUjfyOEEI0--_Ic07ZmDZBoCVkzw_wcB

http://autoplicity.com/868715-precision-shaft-technologies-steel-driveshaft-49inlong-3in-dia?1&gclid=CjwKEAjwq6m3BRCP7IfMq6Oo9gESJACRc0bNsQAcJT2H14B6xKQSEPkxrQfFlXyqeS5zNopiS-F4_xoCcf3w_wcB

The cheapest conversion joints I found were the GMB 240-0356, and some store brand versions of the Precision 372 & Neapco 3-3130.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Universal-Joint-Rear-Front-GMB-240-0356-/261809470934?hash=item3cf50f7dd6:g:7I8AAOSw~gRVqVss&vxp=mtr

http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/MPJ0/372/N2659.oap?ck=Search_N2659_-1_-1&pt=N2659&ppt=C0362

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/neapco-universal-joint-3-3130/5270499-P

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Universal-Joint-Duralast-Rear-DURALAST-by-AutoZone-3-3130DL-/261778027173?hash=item3cf32fb2a5:g:qz8AAOSwZ1lWcRlB&vxp=mtr

Here's one of the cheap yokes.

http://www.proshaftllc.com/collections/proshaft-llc-chevy-32-spline-turbo-400-borg-warner-super-t10-4l80e-transmission-slip-yokes/products/proshaft-llc-gm-turbo-400-slip-yoke-muncie-4l80e-super-t-10-1310-u-joint-precision-369

Edited by - Tub on 17 Mar 2016 9:20:30 PM
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79FORMULA400
Buffalo

USA
75 Posts

Posted - 18 Mar 2016 :  12:02:06 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wow, quite a bit of good info there! If I encounter any issues with my install as cheap as that is I will just order one of those complete drive-shafts. Right now I have ordered a TH400 style yoke (summit house brand) with 1350 Series U-Joints with a conversion Joint to go from 1350 to 3R (or 1344 whatever you want to call it) for the transmission side, and a regular 3R (1.125 cap diameter) U joint in the rear to connect to my stock 10 bolt Pinion. Im hoping that works out, If not I will certainly order one of these

1979 Formula 400 WS6, 1973 400 engine 4X Heads. Summit 2801 Cam, 8AN Fuel System,Edelbrock Performer MSD Dist, 6AL-2 Holley 750 Double Pumper,Super T-10, McLeod Super Street Pro, LSD Rear.
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79FORMULA400
Buffalo

USA
75 Posts

Posted - 01 Apr 2016 :  11:07:02 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Just for anyone reading this in the future, you CANNOT just swap the yoke on a TH350 to Super T10 conversion. I have my transmission in today, I had a driveshaft shop press in my new conversion U-Joints into the stock driveshaft (20 bucks) I went to re install it and it is about an inch too long with the slip yoke fully bottomed out in the transmission. I am going to call the drive shaft shop again Monday and see how much they charge to shorten it an inch and a half. If its any more than 50 bucks I will just order a new driveshaft (Then have to pay another 20 bucks to have the joints pressed in).Oh well, this project was going relatively smoothly and their has to be something that holds the show up for a few days anyway.

Another very strange thing I encountered is how the Transmission/engine now sits in the car. This may be hard to explain with out a picture, but before my engine sat slightly leaned back in the engine compartment. Now with the super T10 the engine sits level. The top 2 bellhousing bolt holes are much more easily accessible now and the distributor has more clearence to the firewall. This almost has me wondering if I need a different crossmember with a lower mount? Do auto and Manual Crossmembers use a different mounting position? My new Slip yoke has literally 1/4 of an inch of clearance to the transmission tunnel. I checked and made sure the new energy suspension mount is the same height as the one I replaced, and sure enough it is. This has me very confused, I will try and upload a picture.

1979 Formula 400 WS6, 1973 400 engine 4X Heads. Summit 2801 Cam, 8AN Fuel System,Edelbrock Performer MSD Dist, 6AL-2 Holley 750 Double Pumper,Super T-10, McLeod Super Street Pro, LSD Rear.
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79FORMULA400
Buffalo

USA
75 Posts

Posted - 01 Apr 2016 :  11:17:59 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
[/URL]
Here we go. That's fully bottomed out into the trans. If I pull it out about an inch and a half it will hit when it spins. Any ideas here? Lower the transmission crossmember or hammer out some more clearance?

1979 Formula 400 WS6, 1973 400 engine 4X Heads. Summit 2801 Cam, 8AN Fuel System,Edelbrock Performer MSD Dist, 6AL-2 Holley 750 Double Pumper,Super T-10, McLeod Super Street Pro, LSD Rear.
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5338 Posts

Posted - 01 Apr 2016 :  11:19:23 PM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Check your pinion angles with weight of rear of car on the axle (so jack stands on axle tubes).
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79FORMULA400
Buffalo

USA
75 Posts

Posted - 01 Apr 2016 :  11:23:50 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
[/URL]
Here is a Pic of my crossmember. This picture is very deceiving, that yoke is massive and takes up all that space.

[/URL]
I guess I have little clearance because of the massive 1350 U-Joints.

1979 Formula 400 WS6, 1973 400 engine 4X Heads. Summit 2801 Cam, 8AN Fuel System,Edelbrock Performer MSD Dist, 6AL-2 Holley 750 Double Pumper,Super T-10, McLeod Super Street Pro, LSD Rear.
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tjs44
Cochise

USA
413 Posts

Posted - 02 Apr 2016 :  11:12:42 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
check you fan blade in the shroud!Make sure it is not hitting.I have had issues with the aftermarket trans mount being too thick.It raises the back and lowers the front of the engine.The car will need to be on the tires on the ground to really be sure.Tom
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Blued and Painted
Chief PONTIAC

USA
3409 Posts

Posted - 02 Apr 2016 :  1:45:06 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You will need a shorter trans mount.


Bull Nose Formula/ 461/ Q-Jet/
TH400/ 3.08 8.5 / R44TS.
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Blued and Painted
Chief PONTIAC

USA
3409 Posts

Posted - 02 Apr 2016 :  8:41:34 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
to keep the drive line angles correct.


Bull Nose Formula/ 461/ Q-Jet/
TH400/ 3.08 8.5 / R44TS.
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79FORMULA400
Buffalo

USA
75 Posts

Posted - 03 Apr 2016 :  10:59:58 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A small update. I replaced the Energy Suspension Poly mount with a shorter mount. This corrected my yoke hitting the trans tunnel issue. I was actually able to install the driveshaft after jacking up the rear and placing the rear axle at ride height. My issue now is I still do not have enough slip yoke sticking out the back of the output shaft. I only have around 1/4 inch of clearance before the yoke bottoms on the output shaft seal. From My reading the goal is 3/4 to 1 1/4 inch of stick out of the back of the transmission. I am going to call my local driveshaft shop (same place that pressed the joints in) and see what the price difference is in having this shaft shortened one inch and then what a shaft built out of larger thicker tube would cost. I think it may be just as economical to have a shaft built now that I have the yoke and new u-joints. I realize they make premade shafts (As stated in an above post) but I would be out even more money by having to buy more conversion U-joints. The engine now sits almost back where it was, their is still more clearance than before to the firewall, which I am plenty fine with. I am not running a fan shrowd and their seem to be no other issues. I bought a angle finder today to see what the angles are like, I will measure them tomorrow before I pull the driveshaft out.

1979 Formula 400 WS6, 1973 400 engine 4X Heads. Summit 2801 Cam, 8AN Fuel System,Edelbrock Performer MSD Dist, 6AL-2 Holley 750 Double Pumper,Super T-10, McLeod Super Street Pro, LSD Rear.
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5338 Posts

Posted - 04 Apr 2016 :  09:32:31 AM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Make sure when measuring, you have the rear weight of the car on the rear end right? It's not hanging down? That will pull the shaft out some.
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79FORMULA400
Buffalo

USA
75 Posts

Posted - 04 Apr 2016 :  11:57:00 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cortcomp

Make sure when measuring, you have the rear weight of the car on the rear end right? It's not hanging down? That will pull the shaft out some.


Yes, the weight of the car is off the jackstands with the entire rear end of the car sitting on the ground. The front of the car is still in the air but it should not make a huge impact on that measurement. Either way this will have to be shortened.

1979 Formula 400 WS6, 1973 400 engine 4X Heads. Summit 2801 Cam, 8AN Fuel System,Edelbrock Performer MSD Dist, 6AL-2 Holley 750 Double Pumper,Super T-10, McLeod Super Street Pro, LSD Rear.
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tjs44
Cochise

USA
413 Posts

Posted - 04 Apr 2016 :  4:28:54 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If your checking the shroud have the front on the ground also.Tom
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79FORMULA400
Buffalo

USA
75 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2016 :  10:15:59 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Going to pick up the driveshaft tommorow. It was only 40 bucks to shorten, and I don't believe they even had to balance it.

1979 Formula 400 WS6, 1973 400 engine 4X Heads. Summit 2801 Cam, 8AN Fuel System,Edelbrock Performer MSD Dist, 6AL-2 Holley 750 Double Pumper,Super T-10, McLeod Super Street Pro, LSD Rear.
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