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profour
Tribal Scout

USA
16 Posts

Posted - 22 Feb 2016 :  10:36:44 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
OK, is it OK to use a flywheel from a 301 on a 400?? I will be balancing the assembly. (Pully, ballancer, crank, rods, clutch, etc.)

GtoGuy32
Cochise

USA
842 Posts

Posted - 23 Feb 2016 :  7:02:53 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I would ditch the cast flywheel for a billet. PRW makes a reasonably priced unit.

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profour
Tribal Scout

USA
16 Posts

Posted - 23 Feb 2016 :  10:46:41 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Why?? The cast one is fine. I didn't ask what you would do, I asked if it was usable. I've used cast flywheels before in race applications with other gm's never had any worries. I've lightened other cast gm units in the past and used them in race applications with no problems. So I'm not worried about one comming apart.
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Brian R
Crazy Horse

USA
1672 Posts

Posted - 24 Feb 2016 :  09:28:20 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Nice answer.....

GTOGuy32 - I would not give him an answer after that... "I didn't ask what you would do, I asked if it was usable."

profour - not sure if you meant to sound like a dick, but you did.
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profour
Tribal Scout

USA
16 Posts

Posted - 24 Feb 2016 :  11:04:51 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sound like a dick... No... just looking for a technical answer. No forum yahoo's. If someone can't answer the question don't wast my time. Not once in the responds does "gtoguy" answer the question. Or does he give a reason why he would switch flywheels. Maybe he is a rep. For PRW? I don't know. Just looking for facts my friend.
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5335 Posts

Posted - 24 Feb 2016 :  11:51:20 AM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
"the cast one is fine". You start off wrong already though. It worked for stock applications. You had it work for you, but that's not real data. that could mean it's fine, or you had good ones, or you were lucky.

I hit a hard six a couple times at the craps table, doesn't mean it's going to hit every time or that it makes sense to bet it. Do you really want to save $200 and wonder if the used flywheel you put on is the one that comes apart? It's a gruesome scene seeing someone with their guts hanging out gurgling blood. I wouldn't run a stock one over like 5000ish rpms consistently. Not because it probably wouldn't be ok, just because the insurance is so cheap for a new billet one.
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profour
Tribal Scout

USA
16 Posts

Posted - 24 Feb 2016 :  12:12:28 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Lol... I've never won at craps! Blood and guts will ruin a Saturday every time. (Especially when its mine) $200.00 is cheap. Would you feel comfortable running a billet one with an aluminum bell? I'd like to keep the weight down. I have cut the bottoms off before but for this particular car we are trying to save weight.
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Bill Boyle
Horse Feathers (Charter Member)

USA
4793 Posts

Posted - 24 Feb 2016 :  2:51:02 PM  Show Profile  Visit Bill Boyle's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The OEM flywheel for a 301 will work, however, If your 400 will see lots of drag strip time, the best insurance is a new steel unit from Ram or other quality manufacturer. Moreover, if you are really banging gears, a new throw out bearing, new pressure plate, disc and flywheel makes sense. It all depends on use and one's new part budget.

"Dedicated to keeping the classic Pontiac engine alive."

----
400 bored +.030, forged TRW pistons, ported 62 heads, Hedman headers, 2.5 SS dual exhaust X Pypes, Comp 276AH10 cam, Scorpion 1.65 RR, 850 Q-jet, stock intake & tuned HEI; original owner.
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profour
Tribal Scout

USA
16 Posts

Posted - 24 Feb 2016 :  3:46:28 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bill thanks for the info. Just what I was looking for. The car is a 79 t/a with Hurst tops, originally had a 301 n/a, and backed by a Borg warner 4speed and 3.08 drum rear. Still have the original motor and tranny. Car has been following me around since 1989. Build sheet shows no options other than power brakes/ steering, rear defrost, and power antenna. And strangely ordered with deluxe interior. And all covered in black. At this time both a 400 and the 301 are being built for it. The 400 will be about 9-1 compression .030 overbore, hard blocked, aftermarket rods, 6x/4 heads with all the right stuff. Aluminum intake, etc. The 301 will be .030 over, hard blocked, heads have been reconfigured with countless hours of hand blending to match the restrictive sucky intake that also has hours of work! big valves, the cfm numbers aren't big but the velocity is insane! The 301 wont waste a bit of intake air or will it leave any in the chamber. May not stay together either! Lol! It may never even go in the car. Just be sold with it? Again thanks for the info on the flywheel.
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5335 Posts

Posted - 24 Feb 2016 :  3:46:32 PM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Factory bells were alum and i have no qualms running a reasonable strip car with a factory bell...others here may disagree that have more strip experience.
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profour
Tribal Scout

USA
16 Posts

Posted - 24 Feb 2016 :  4:52:41 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agree. We have all heard of the mystery person who lost their legs from the knees down. From a clutch coming apart. But honestly I have never seen a flywheel come apart. Let alone one explode through the bell and floor. I'm certain it may have! I just know how these things stories grow. Some were someone has seen bigfoot also ya know. I am not about to waste a good flywheel just to have a billet one. I'd go with an aluminum one if I was looking for a new one.
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GtoGuy32
Cochise

USA
842 Posts

Posted - 24 Feb 2016 :  7:07:31 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by profour

Why?? The cast one is fine. I didn't ask what you would do, I asked if it was usable. I've used cast flywheels before in race applications with other gm's never had any worries. I've lightened other cast gm units in the past and used them in race applications with no problems. So I'm not worried about one comming apart.



It's okay Profour. I am used to dealing with dickheads like you on a regular basis...

If you'd like a detailed answer on why I think you should use a billet versus cast flywheel, I could give it to you. I am a mechanical engineer and deal with metallurgy and other materials every day I go to work...

The fact is, you're a newcomer to this forum and attitudes aren't appreciated.

Here's another fact....dopes like you sometimes become the "mystery person". Let's hope you get "lucky".
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profour
Tribal Scout

USA
16 Posts

Posted - 24 Feb 2016 :  10:02:40 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hey "gtobitch"! I'm not going to get into a simple battle with you about what you are or what you do. Ive been around along time myself, done a lot of oval track racing during my years. Won many races from Maine to Florida! (ACT Tour, and Modified tour) Unfortunately its always been Chevy power. I am EXTREMELY knoweledgeable on what race engines can do. And I HAVE PLENTY of $$ to make a Pontiac go fast! Or do like you may have done and just purchase stuff. But i enjoy the blueprinting and machining of engines far more than calling Butler and having one delivered with whatever h/p i want. But racing days are far gone for me. I just enjoy cruising these days. If I hurt your feelings o well. Build a bridge! There seems like there are a lot of smart well educated Pontiac people on this site, and your not one of them. Bill answered my question perfectly, he seems to be very knowledgeable. (people like him must make you lose sleep at night.) And if your so used to dealing with dickheads on a regular bass that leads me to believe it must be you! Now "gtobitch" have a nice day.
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GtoGuy32
Cochise

USA
842 Posts

Posted - 24 Feb 2016 :  11:11:44 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by profour

Hey "gtobitch"! I'm not going to get into a simple battle with you about what you are or what you do. Ive been around along time myself, done a lot of oval track racing during my years. Won many races from Maine to Florida! (ACT Tour, and Modified tour) Unfortunately its always been Chevy power. I am EXTREMELY knoweledgeable on what race engines can do. And I HAVE PLENTY of $$ to make a Pontiac go fast! Or do like you may have done and just purchase stuff. But i enjoy the blueprinting and machining of engines far more than calling Butler and having one delivered with whatever h/p i want. But racing days are far gone for me. I just enjoy cruising these days. If I hurt your feelings o well. Build a bridge! There seems like there are a lot of smart well educated Pontiac people on this site, and your not one of them. Bill answered my question perfectly, he seems to be very knowledgeable. (people like him must make you lose sleep at night.) And if your so used to dealing with dickheads on a regular bass that leads me to believe it must be you! Now "gtobitch" have a nice day.



If you can't handle it, don't dish it out! I have known Bill on this forum for years and you are right he is very knowledgeable and helpful, that's about all you have said that is true. I think based on other's comments to you about your response, you know who the dickhead is here. I am well accepting of constructive feedback, heck, Cobrabill has been schooling me for the last week! I also would like to think I have offered useful advice to others when restoring and building their cars. I have restored half a dozen Pontiacs, currently own three, race one, and am restoring one to concourse condition due to its rarity and uniqueness.

I have been building and restoring Pontiacs long before chatting on this forum, but feel that I am better equipped by knowing these guys are here for me and I am for them. If you don't want to play nice, then it's your loss.

Just to clear the air, I have never bought anything from Butler or Kauffman, so don't assume that just because I told you about a brand of flywheel. In your case, the only good option is to purchase a new flywheel IMO, but you are too arrogant to consider that advise for what it is worth.

Just a fact on Pontiacs versus Chevy....they break parts a lot easier because they crank out a heck of a lot more torque. Build them strong and with superior components and they will last.

I'm done responding to you on this. If you would like to have a civil conversation on some other topic, I'd be happy to...just be prepared that sometimes people are going to give you their opinion whether you were looking for it or not....it's what makes "conversation" interesting.






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Phil
The Great White Buffalo

USA
7214 Posts

Posted - 24 Feb 2016 :  11:13:01 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cortcomp

Factory bells were alum and i have no qualms running a reasonable strip car with a factory bell...others here may disagree that have more strip experience.


Nunzi told me to run a steel flywheel before worrying about the stock bell. Better to avoid the explosion in the first place instead of trying to contain it.

Bowties are for Pee-wee Herman. "Chevy": even the name sounds cheap, but not as cheap as your Pontiac will be with an LS transplant.
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cortcomp
Coyote

USA
5335 Posts

Posted - 25 Feb 2016 :  11:12:58 AM  Show Profile  Visit cortcomp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Another plus is that swapping factory bells is usually fine, no run out and things usually inline enough to work well. Aftermarket ones may need "Setup" with offset dowel pins, etc and people may not know that or how to do it, and have binding issues.
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Steve C.
Crazy Horse

1673 Posts

Posted - 25 Feb 2016 :  12:21:05 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Passed on from this dickhead....

Pontiac parts swapping guide / Flywheel will directly interchange among years shown without modification:
55-57, 58-60, 61-62, 63, 64-76

"We feel that the use of a steel or aluminum flywheel is mandatory on any engine which is wound in excess of 5000 rpm. The stock cast iron units may fail at higher rpm with the resultant destruction of your feet and the car. Steel scattershields are advertised to withstand the force of cast flywheel disintegration, but we recommend that you buy the flywheel first; then possibly the scattershield. It is best to avoid the explosion rather than try to contain it."
H.O Racing
Craig Hendrikson & Kern Osterstock


https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=u0-oinyjsk0

Edited by - Steve C. on 25 Feb 2016 12:21:47 PM
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Phil
The Great White Buffalo

USA
7214 Posts

Posted - 25 Feb 2016 :  4:19:05 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Holy Consensus, Batman! Nunzi and HO were completely in sync on that issue.

Bowties are for Pee-wee Herman. "Chevy": even the name sounds cheap, but not as cheap as your Pontiac will be with an LS transplant.
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profour
Tribal Scout

USA
16 Posts

Posted - 25 Feb 2016 :  9:38:16 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hey look, this has taken on a life of its own! Kind of a good back and forth. Alot of folks don't understand the reasoning for a scatter shield vs a bell housing. I'm glad for so much input. Others may read this and get humor from gtoguy and I going at each other, but between all that there is some real good explaining WHY someone would need a scatter shield. Also explaining that a scatter shield may need to be indexed to the block. Not to mention they weight about 25 pounds!
I'm the type of person that wants facts and reasons about particular parts. I'm not big on following, that's the reasoning I say I don't care what someone does, or what they would purchase. Tell me why you would do these things or purchase a particular part.
Thanks for the advise to all of you. One other quick thing. Has anyone ever used a triple-disc clutch? And if so what was the results? Thanks
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GtoGuy32
Cochise

USA
842 Posts

Posted - 26 Feb 2016 :  07:20:45 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Here's a couple images of the measuring equipment to dial in an aftermarket safety bell housing. I used a test-indicator, which reads out to 4 place accuracy (not necessary, but nice) and it fits the bore of the opening better than a standard dial indicator.

From my understanding, old muncie's and T10s are less sensitive to concentricity issues, but was told to keep alignment under 0.010". For the newer T56-style trans, they want to be under 0.005" to keep from having shifting issues.

I was able to get my bell within 0.003" using the lakewood eccentric down-pins. I measured at a number of clock locations to figure out which way the bell needed to move.

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Here's a pic of one of the pins. They have a locking screw in the middle once you have them clocked. Very easy, just takes a little time.

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profour
Tribal Scout

USA
16 Posts

Posted - 26 Feb 2016 :  10:27:14 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Rock solid photographs! Thanks
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