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 4 speed vs turbo400
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Hunterc301
Tribal Scout

USA
8 Posts

Posted - 03 Feb 2016 :  12:13:00 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I am building a 67 firebird and the engine going in it is a 455 I was wondering what would be faster a four speed or a turbo 400 I'll probably be running something like 3.55 gears and would like some input thanks

Phil
The Great White Buffalo

USA
7215 Posts

Posted - 03 Feb 2016 :  07:02:49 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Faster as in drag racing? If so, the answer is yes. A good Automatic will consistently outperform the manual. Another factor to consider is the manual setup won't hold up behind the 455 and will need a lot of attention if racing it.

On the other hand, if a street car I would always opt for the manual as automatics bore me to death. A manual in one of these old V-8 cars can be a big part of their personality.

Bowties are for Pee-wee Herman. "Chevy": even the name sounds cheap, but not as cheap as your Pontiac will be with an LS transplant.
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Bill Boyle
Horse Feathers (Charter Member)

USA
4794 Posts

Posted - 03 Feb 2016 :  08:52:51 AM  Show Profile  Visit Bill Boyle's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Both types of transmissions can be upgraded to live longer than stock and each will perform better as well. Phil is right, automatic cars are a tad quicker at the drag strip and typically require less thought to come off a light hard on the street, but they are not necessarily faster (top speed) than a stick car. Reason: The hydraulics consume torque.

All of my "sporty" cars have had manual transmissions because they are "sporty" and provide a little more driving experience (fun) for me.

"Dedicated to keeping the classic Pontiac engine alive."

----
400 bored +.030, forged TRW pistons, ported 62 heads, Hedman headers, 2.5 SS dual exhaust X Pypes, Comp 276AH10 cam, Scorpion 1.65 RR, 850 Q-jet, stock intake & tuned HEI; original owner.
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Steve C.
Crazy Horse

1674 Posts

Posted - 03 Feb 2016 :  10:17:37 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Not necessarily a recommendation but for interest here.....

One could also option for a "full manual" valve body on the TH400 transmission. You move the shifter yourself. No clutch, you just shift the gears.

If you want the best of both worlds use a manual/auto valve body; you can put it in D or shift manually if you choose to. That is the way I have my current 2004R overdrive transmission set up. When desired I can ratchet the B&M StarShifter down into 1st gear, and as I accelerate I shift manually up thru the gears just like a stick shift.

As installed in my car here:

http://image.hotrod.com/f/8905910+w660+h495+cr1/0712phr_04_z%2b1970_pontiac_trans_am%2bshifter.jpg

Edited by - Steve C. on 03 Feb 2016 10:19:33 AM
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Phil
The Great White Buffalo

USA
7215 Posts

Posted - 03 Feb 2016 :  2:55:35 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Steve, that looks a lot like the Quicksilver in one of my Firebirds. Is it functionally different?

Bowties are for Pee-wee Herman. "Chevy": even the name sounds cheap, but not as cheap as your Pontiac will be with an LS transplant.

Edited by - Phil on 03 Feb 2016 2:56:07 PM
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Hunterc301
Tribal Scout

USA
8 Posts

Posted - 03 Feb 2016 :  6:29:10 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The dilemma I have is that the car has a bench seat and a automatic on the Colum and I think that it is just ugly so I kinda am leaning into the manual side but I do want my car to be able to perform the best what gears do you think are better 3.42 or 3.55 ?
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Bill Boyle
Horse Feathers (Charter Member)

USA
4794 Posts

Posted - 04 Feb 2016 :  4:08:29 PM  Show Profile  Visit Bill Boyle's Homepage  Reply with Quote
What kind of driving will you be doing with the car? What are you intending to do with the engine? Are you going with stock hp or increasing power with higher compression, bigger cam etc.

"Dedicated to keeping the classic Pontiac engine alive."

----
400 bored +.030, forged TRW pistons, ported 62 heads, Hedman headers, 2.5 SS dual exhaust X Pypes, Comp 276AH10 cam, Scorpion 1.65 RR, 850 Q-jet, stock intake & tuned HEI; original owner.

Edited by - Bill Boyle on 04 Feb 2016 4:08:50 PM
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GtoGuy32
Cochise

USA
842 Posts

Posted - 04 Feb 2016 :  10:46:28 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hunter,

I have a street / strip 69 GTO with a 455 HO and an M22 Autogear 4 Speed. I have raced this car for the last 5 years and haven't broken anything related to the transmission and I consistently dead hook the car at 4500 RPM on a 9 inch slick.

The car weights 3700 lbs with me in and has run 11.89 @ 115.5 mph. I am bumping the power up a bit on my engine this winter, so I will upgrade to an Autogear M23 extreme duty transmission.

Check it out http://midwestmuncie.com/super-duty-m23/

These transmissions can easily take 800 ft-lbs all day long.

The bottom line is that a 4 speed can survive behind a torquey 455. I HAMMER my car and it has not skipped a beat. You have to use good parts behind 4 speeds....axles, u-joints, suspension parts, etc.

If you can shift and cut a good light, you can still race with most amateur weekend warriors. I don't race for money, but often make it to semi or final eliminations in my class of mostly automatics, it takes practice to get good, but it's the way racing was back in the day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNTB5XJvlDE

You don't have to screw around with torque converters and working out what stall works for your engine. Idle quality is less of an issue with a 4 speed.

A 4 speed vs TH400 behind the same engine....a 4 speed with turn higher MPH in the 1/4. The losses through a TH400 are significant compared to a 4 speed.

I do agree that an automatic can handle more abuse and is easier on the rest of the drive train.

It's all about preference, but there is something to be said for rowing gears at the track and they are hands-down more fun on the street.

-Dave
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Steve C.
Crazy Horse

1674 Posts

Posted - 05 Feb 2016 :  6:38:48 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Phil, I mispoke. It is a B&M QuickSilver shifter. Sorry for any confusion.

The QuickSilver Shifter is available for GM F-Body consoles and, when installed, it looks like original equipment but with B&M features.

Edited by - Steve C. on 05 Feb 2016 6:42:40 PM
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Phil
The Great White Buffalo

USA
7215 Posts

Posted - 05 Feb 2016 :  7:45:12 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hunter, the rear gear choice is an integral part of the combination you chose. With most street 455's for example, I wouldn't go any more aggressive than what you are proposing, and probably "less gear" but why don't you post the whole setup or "plan" and let's see what's what.

Bowties are for Pee-wee Herman. "Chevy": even the name sounds cheap, but not as cheap as your Pontiac will be with an LS transplant.

Edited by - Phil on 05 Feb 2016 7:45:49 PM
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Hunterc301
Tribal Scout

USA
8 Posts

Posted - 06 Feb 2016 :  1:41:02 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Okay so the car is a 67 firebird weighing probably somewhere in the 3400 pound range I have the 455 at the machine shop and it's going to basically be "warmed over" it's has 4x heads around 9.5-10.1 compression and they'll probably put a comp cam in it probably around 230 intake duration I have an eldebrock performer is this good ? Or should I opt for the performer rpm? And of course I'll be useing headers and the carb I have for it is a Holley 750 double pumper would this be good for at least 450 horsepower ? For the transmission I'm leaning towards a super t-10 mostly because they are a little cheaper and easier to find now should I put the original rear end back together with gears and a posi or I also of a twelve bolt housing out of a Chevelle would I be better off putting gears and a posi in this ? I know
I'll have to get perches and what not and I can't decide on the gears but everywhere Ive read says go with 3.55 but anyways that's all I can think of for the moment thanks for the replies!
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Hunterc301
Tribal Scout

USA
8 Posts

Posted - 06 Feb 2016 :  1:46:19 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm not looking to build a race car just a car that can make the new ones look kinda silly on the street
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tjs44
Cochise

USA
412 Posts

Posted - 06 Feb 2016 :  7:25:07 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
real muscle cars have 3 pedals!Period
Most race cars only have 2.
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GtoGuy32
Cochise

USA
842 Posts

Posted - 06 Feb 2016 :  9:59:25 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That car is not heavy enough, nor will it get enough traction to break a 4 speed.

Super T10 is a good option on a budget, but won't shift quite as nice as a muncie.

What carb will you run? I don't think the performer is worth going with and you'd be better off with the cast intake or performer rpm.

Do you have more cam specs?

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Hunterc301
Tribal Scout

USA
8 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2016 :  1:04:11 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have a Holley 750 DP I don't really know the cam specs I'll be able to get them in a day or so when I go down to the shop
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GtoGuy32
Cochise

USA
842 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2016 :  8:30:49 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Hunterc301

I have a Holley 750 DP I don't really know the cam specs I'll be able to get them in a day or so when I go down to the shop



750 DP is a good carb for your setup. It should be pretty snappy on the street. I run a Torker II and it very responsive for a single plane intake. Stock iron or rpm will be even more snappy.

Do you have any info on head flow? Stock porting? It will be interesting to compare to your cam specs.
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NOTROD
Buffalo

USA
64 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2016 :  11:48:56 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have a Muncie 4 speed in my car and love it. It's way cooler and way more fun to drive. As far as being faster I think you would be surprised at how much power an automatic trans consumes. However, if your drag racing, consistency and reaction is the name of the game and a good automatic will give you both.
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Phil
The Great White Buffalo

USA
7215 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2016 :  10:19:10 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by tjs44

real muscle cars have 3 pedals!Period
Most race cars only have 2.



I can't argue with that logic. That's why I am in the process of converting the 70 GTO from a 200-4R to a Richmond 5 speed. Love the 200-4R, but the GTO's interior just never looked quite right to me with that automatic shifter and missing pedal.

Bowties are for Pee-wee Herman. "Chevy": even the name sounds cheap, but not as cheap as your Pontiac will be with an LS transplant.
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deez nuts
Buffalo

67 Posts

Posted - 25 Jul 2017 :  02:04:05 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Who cares how fast it is when a clutch is a thousand times more fun to drive!
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Blued and Painted
Chief PONTIAC

USA
3405 Posts

Posted - 25 Jul 2017 :  10:06:51 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My Knee pops about every 5th depression of a clutch pedal. Ouch !!


Bull Nose Formula/ 461/ Q-Jet/
TH400/ 3.08 8.5 / R44TS.

Edited by - Blued and Painted on 25 Jul 2017 10:07:59 AM
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Phil
The Great White Buffalo

USA
7215 Posts

Posted - 28 Jul 2017 :  11:34:49 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What clutch?

Bowties are for Pee-wee Herman. "Chevy": even the name sounds cheap, but not as cheap as your Pontiac will be with an LS transplant.
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Blued and Painted
Chief PONTIAC

USA
3405 Posts

Posted - 28 Jul 2017 :  1:51:17 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
pretty much any diaphragm pressure plate with a Single dry-clutch friction disc.

Yes, i did sell the stick car.


Bull Nose Formula/ 461/ Q-Jet/
TH400/ 3.08 8.5 / R44TS.
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DanM
Buffalo

80 Posts

Posted - 24 Aug 2017 :  10:11:37 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Commuting every day in stop and go traffic while shifting with a clutch would kill my knee. I'm with you Blued.
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